[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

Nice job though, Testing 32!

-Matt

[JMarchi]

So, it seems like Green Sun's Zenith has been pretty hot lately. Is that the superior direction to take the deck now?

[sdematt]

Yes and no. Giving yourself access to silver-bullet creatures is good, but you basically have to drop disruption to run it. I'll probably try it, to be honest.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

No in that you will be playing a technically worse version of SotF. As cool as the card is unless you have an engine that you are searching for or a way to power out huge GSZ( like elves) than you are just better playing more business spells than a tutor that can double as a mana ramp( if you wanna open yourself up to a wasteland to the face)

This card will fall the way of living wish/glittering wish....really awesome in theory but not so much when you realize that you need to keep a "zenith board" in your main deck slots...

[kubalonek]

Two top8 in last two SCG open proven that the other approach to Junk including GSZ is possible and very competitive. That is way I do not underestand narrow minded thinking that GSZ will fall like Wish. What else do you need to believe in fact that GSZ version is as good as normal version with vindicates?

[lavafrogg]

The two decks you speak of, in my opinion, show the sheer power of the deck itself. One of the decks has two separate toolboxes and the other has three, including an enlightened tutor board in the side. These deck layout is going to ensure an uneasy game against both aggro and control in that you will be looking for your bombs after an aggro deck can kill you and you will have nothing left to do once the control deck finally gains control.
I do really love the potential for 5 gaddock teegs in game one, i believe that you will have less to do in the second and third games because you are basically trying to preside in some match-ups.

One difference you will notice is that the decks also both run mox diamond and jitte. These cards are both ridiculously powerful in their own right...

Junk/Rock as an archetype is finally starting to become the deck to beat instead of just a solid tier 2 deck. The power level of the cards are ridiculous in their own right and when combined they possess top 8ing power out the wazoo.

[kubalonek]

If Gaddock Teeg stays in play it locks all Planeswalkers, Forces, IGG, Add Nauseam, NO and enemy GSZ this of course shuts of our GSZ also. But is nice to have (having 3 GSZ) access to 6 goyfs, 7 KoTRs during the game especialy with use of Volrath's Stronghold. Additionally 3 more shuffle effects works perfect with STD. Against agro like zoo one good hit discard spell + blocker or StP with wasteland can easily stop them from beeing so aggressive. I don't know how does work against Goblins due to the fact that I did not played against them yet with GSZ but normal construction in G1 I had slight problem to overhelm their early turns domination.

As for Jitte it is rarelly visible in the Standard rock, it appeared in GSZ rock as far as I remember.

The one thing that I don't like in GSZ Rock is that if the planeswalker or humility hits the board there is no answer in form of Vindicate / Pulse.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I really like the E Tutor board. I almost audibled to Junk the night before Charlotte, because I had gotten my Moxen altered, but decided to stick to my Wb, which is ok because I T8ed with it, because of my Tutor board.

I've always loved Gaddock Teeg and Inquisition in Junk. I don't know that I would ever cut Vindicate though, it's just too good.

I'm going to have to test a GSZ light, maybe 2, build with an E Tutor board.

[deezy]

the deck places with and without gsz because it runs the best creature suite in the game and has the best colors for removal/hate cards.....

[sdematt]

To be honest, I'd maybe try 2 GSZ instead of say, Jitte. Not saying Jitte's bad and needs to be cut, I'm just looking for cuts. Then, the traditional list could be changed to something like this, like a GSZ/traditional hybrid:

23-24 lands

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
13

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Win-dicate
3 Sensei's Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Deed
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
22

+1/2 slots

My only issue is, switching to GSZ means you switch the colour reliance moreso from Black to Green. It'll mean you need to change your manabase up a bit to possibly include more green duals and more black, so perhaps a 3: 2 :1 Bayou:Scrub:Sav ratio. It'll also mean you'll need Bayou like you need crack, considering you need double black for Hymn, but we'll see.

Thoughts on the list?

-Matt

[publius_aelius]

Trying to merge the two versions together is a nice idea, but I would definitely add Mox Diamond. In my experience (played app. 100 tournament matches with junk since May last year) Mox is the most potent card in the deck. Maybe:

4 4 4 (kotr, goyf, bob)
1 depending on the meta - Teeg or Sylvan Safekeeper (I can not emphasize enough how important it is to protect one's bob or kotr)

3 GSZ
3 Mox Diamond
2 SDT
4 StP
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn

[2Rach]

I tested a GSZ/Mystic Junk list this past weekend. Basically, his list minus the Birds, a Top, a Jitte for a couple Mystics and a Sword of Fire and Ice. More stock land package too. It did pretty well, but I did miss the removal a bit. It made my Confidant America matchup better and combo matchup better maindeck. I haven't tested how taking out Deeds and putting in Jitte/SoFI has affected the tribal matchups, but in theory it seems like the transition would be fine.

And I ran an Enlightened Tutor package sideboard.


Something like this is probably what I'll be testing/using:

Creatures: 16
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary

Other: 21
3x Mox Diamond
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Lands: 23
4x Wasteland
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Maze of Ith
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
1x Swamp
1x Plains

SB: 15
3x Duress
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Path to Exile / -1+1 Duress/Spellbomb/Aura of Silence
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Engineered Plague
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Bojuka Bog

[CorpT]

Cut Tarmogoyf, not Jitte. Jitte is incredibly powerful. I can't imagine running without it.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I think that you should always run 4 Knight. That being said I really don't like Bojuka Bog, especially if you're playing E Tutor. Not being able to wipe a GY in response without an untapped Knight without summoning sickness is pretty week IMO.

What are everyone's thoughts on The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? In all my testing I've rarely been sad to see it, and when I was I usually pitched it to Mox Diamond. I think it helps tribal MUs immensely and is good against any deck running more than 12 creatures.

I'm not real sure what the Affinity and Meandeck MUD MUs are like for Junk but I would think that a single Null Rod in the board could be amazing with E Tutor. Yes I know it shuts off Top and Diamond, but it stops Affinity from doing anything other than turning dudes already on the table sideways. It also stops Metalworker/Forgemaster and any artifact lands anyone may be playing. Against Tendrils it shuts down LED andLotus Petal.

If you're opposed to Null Rod, Serenity may be a good consideration.

[CorpT]

I like Kataki for all of the artifact based decks. Affinity, Counter Thopter, MUD, Stax... it is very effective against all of those.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I like Kataki for all of the artifact based decks. Affinity, Counter Thopter, MUD, Stax... it is very effective against all of those.

But you can't search for Kataki because he's white (yeah I went there) and he's not an artifact.

[bowvamp]

@CorpT
He's still running 1 Jitte & cutting Tarmogoyf in The Rock isn't smart. Tarmogoyf is incredibly powerful. I can't imagine running without it.

[bracer028]

@CorpT
He's still running 1 Jitte & cutting Tarmogoyf in The Rock isn't smart. Tarmogoyf is incredibly powerful. I can't imagine running without it.

i don't know how anyone runs less than 4 goyfs when using any green in a deck

[CorpT]

i don't know how anyone runs less than 4 goyfs when using any green in a deck

It's pretty easy actually. The 1st Jitte is more powerful than the 4th Goyf.

Tarmogoyf is a big dumb creature. That's it. It is incredibly efficient and powerful, but that's it. Jitte, can change games from losing to winning. Having 1 (or even better, 2) in your deck is better than the 4th Goyf.

[bracer028]

It's pretty easy actually. The 1st Jitte is more powerful than the 4th Goyf.

Tarmogoyf is a big dumb creature. That's it. It is incredibly efficient and powerful, but that's it. Jitte, can change games from losing to winning. Having 1 (or even better, 2) in your deck is better than the 4th Goyf.

yes jitte is good, but i would not place it over the 4th goyf. i would rather do it to another card slot.