[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Mr. Safety]

Just a discussion starter:

1) Is anyone still using Vials in Deadguy?
2) If you answered 'yes' to #1, would you consider using 2x Myr Superion to bring big, equipped beats?

[Richard Cheese]

1. Yes
2. No - without Vial he's just dead in hand, I'd rather just throw in a couple green sources to run Goyf and at least have the possibility of hard casting my fattie.

[K1w1]

Actually not. In future not.
Hate vial :D
so.. No

K1w1

[Mr. Safety]

1. Yes
2. No - without Vial he's just dead in hand, I'd rather just throw in a couple green sources to run Goyf and at least have the possibility of hard casting my fattie.

Interesting...I would think with a full set of Vials, 2x Superion would be just about right. Not enough to clog your hand with useless cards but enough copies that he could be useful. In Vial lists, there seems to be a good concentration of 2-drop dudes (mostly hatebears and Bobs) so he falls right into step with a Vial set @ 2. He will ALWAYS be 5/6 and vial-ing him in would be great...especially when you can Vial + Equip him with a sword for 2 mana. A 7/8 with pro:red and blue OR pro:black and white OR just a 5/6 with a Jitte...seems strong, and doesn't break the cardinal sin of the Deadguy thread of suggesting another color splash, lol.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Just a discussion starter:

1) Is anyone still using Vials in Deadguy?
2) If you answered 'yes' to #1, would you consider using 2x Myr Superion to bring big, equipped beats?

1) Yes.
2) Absolutely not.

If I could cast him without Vial... maybe. I often side Vial out and they aren't necessary to be able to keep your first 7. He doesn't disrupt, he doesn't have evasion, and he's subject to both artifact and creature removal.

At this point I like Serra Avenger better because you can cast her, she has flying, AND she has vigilance, which is often key to not getting yourself killed after you swing. With a Jitte she can get 4 counters a turn, but will probably just hold nuisances at bay.

[Richard Cheese]

Tim, what matchups do you usually side out Vial for?

[bracer028]

whta you should run is jotun grunt.

[Star|Scream]

whta you should run is jotun grunt.

or goyf

[bracer028]

or goyf

but u might not want to splash green.

[Star|Scream]

but u might not want to splash green.

or play with creatures that only live for 2 turns, with 0 ways to keep them alive (a la flickerwisp in D&T)

[Mr. Safety]

1) Yes.
2) Absolutely not.

If I could cast him without Vial... maybe. I often side Vial out and they aren't necessary to be able to keep your first 7. He doesn't disrupt, he doesn't have evasion, and he's subject to both artifact and creature removal.

At this point I like Serra Avenger better because you can cast her, she has flying, AND she has vigilance, which is often key to not getting yourself killed after you swing. With a Jitte she can get 4 counters a turn, but will probably just hold nuisances at bay.

Thanks for the feedback.

Any other thoughts anyone?

[Anthem]

or play with creatures that only live for 2 turns, with 0 ways to keep them alive (a la flickerwisp in D&T)

Jotun Grunt is generally removed before his upkeep becomes unaffordable; not a lot of decks want to stare down a 4/4, especially if an equipment is waiting to be attached to it. Besides, he's a mainboard graveyard hatebear, and beats Goyf 1v1 in a format where Goyf is honestly a bit overplayed. I've realized that a deck hardly needs more than two Grunts, though.
Another cool feature is that he's reasonable way to get a vital one-of equipment or enchantment back if an opponent destroys it. The look on an opponent's face is pretty nice when you slide the Jitte/ORing/Runed Halo/etc under your library, vial in Stoneforge or use ET, and cast it again.
In my experience, he always does his job before he has to go.

[Star|Scream]

Jotun Grunt is generally removed before his upkeep becomes unaffordable; not a lot of decks want to stare down a 4/4, especially if an equipment is waiting to be attached to it. Besides, he's a mainboard graveyard hatebear, and beats Goyf 1v1 in a format where Goyf is honestly a bit overplayed. I've realized that a deck hardly needs more than two Grunts, though.
Another cool feature is that he's reasonable way to get a vital one-of equipment or enchantment back if an opponent destroys it. The look on an opponent's face is pretty nice when you slide the Jitte/ORing/Runed Halo/etc under your library, vial in Stoneforge or use ET, and cast it again.
In my experience, he always does his job before he has to go.

I understand grunt's merits. I've used him before. There are plenty of times where the above scenarios play out, but also plenty of times where you're stalled in a ground war, or need to keep the grunt back to defend against an alpha strike. Your opponent can afford to wait it out a couple of turns, or even just take 4-8 damage and then not have to worry about him any more. They can't do that with avenger, and in the latest vial build we've been discussing, I would much rather have the angel.

[Anthem]

I understand grunt's merits. I've used him before. There are plenty of times where the above scenarios play out, but also plenty of times where you're stalled in a ground war, or need to keep the grunt back to defend against an alpha strike. Your opponent can afford to wait it out a couple of turns, or even just take 4-8 damage and then not have to worry about him any more. They can't do that with avenger, and in the latest vial build we've been discussing, I would much rather have the angel.

Oh definitely. Serra Avenger has been a house for this deck. I rarely see a build without 4; mine sure has a playset. I thought we were discussing whether the deck would rather use Jotun Grunt, Goyf, or Myr Superion. I would run a Grunt before considering a third color, and Myr Superion is more conditional than Grunt has even been.

[Star|Scream]

Oh definitely. Serra Avenger has been a house for this deck. I rarely see a build without 4; mine sure has a playset. I thought we were discussing whether the deck would rather use Jotun Grunt, Goyf, or Myr Superion. I would run a Grunt before considering a third color, and Myr Superion is more conditional than Grunt has even been.

I'm sorry, I was referring to the blanket offering of grunt for the deck as a whole. I think with tim's list, pretty much every creature you put out is a threat that needs to be dealt with. They can't let a bear live because said bear can either fly w/o tapping, exile a card you need, shut off a card you have, or draw an extra card per turn. I don't think that adding a 4/4 that kills itself is what the deck needs.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Tim, what matchups do you usually side out Vial for?

Generally speaking, at least one comes out almost every time. The list is so tight and I usually bring in at least 5 cards that Aether Vial, while awesome, just doesn't make the cut.

It really depends on what the build looks like but I usually take all of them out against Goblins, Affinity, Dredge, and Meandeck MUD, at least 2 vs Merfolk. Depending on the type of combo some come out because I really want to hold the mana open for StP or E Tutor. It comes down to what is going to be more effective at winning the game and usually the SB hate wins because most of those pieces allow me to control the tempo of the game to the point where it doesn't matter if I have to cast my creatures. I either want to play Vial on T1 or later in the game once I've established control, at which point I don't need four.

I tried Jhotun Grunt for a while but didn't like it at all. In my build I don't have the glut of cards going into the yard so I have to rely on my opponent to keep him alive. On top of that, like others have said, he's not disruptive and doesn't have evasion or vigilance. I'd honestly be more tempted to splash green >:0 for Goyf than play Grunt, at least then I can have Gaddock Teeg again. Unfortunately, there really isn't room for more than four non-disruptive creatures in the deck.

[Star|Scream]

Generally speaking, at least comes out almost every time. The list is so tight and I usually bring in at least 5 cards that Aether Vial, while awesome, just doesn't make the cut.

It really depends on what the build looks like but I usually take all of them out against Goblins, Affinity, Dredge, and Meandeck MUD, at least 2 vs Merfolk. Depending on the type of combo some come out because I really want to hold the mana open for StP or E Tutor. It comes down to what is going to be more effective at winning the game and usually the SB hate wins because most of those pieces allow me to control the tempo of the game to the point where it doesn't matter if I have to cast my creatures. I either want to play Vial on T1 or later in the game once I've established control, at which point I don't need four.

I tried Jhotun Grunt for a while but didn't like it at all. In my build I don't have the glut of cards going into the yard so I have to rely on my opponent to keep him alive. On top of that, like others have said, he's not disruptive and doesn't have evasion or vigilance. I'd honestly be more tempted to splash green >:0 for Goyf than play Grunt, at least then I can have Gaddock Teeg again. Unfortunately, there really isn't room for more than four non-disruptive creatures in the deck.

Tim, do you think your t8 would have gone differently if you had 1x absolute law in the board? I also want a serenity for affinity/mud but you need to mull to it or a tutor cause you certainly can't play it after a bunch of your critters are out.

[CorpT]

Tim, do you think your t8 would have gone differently if you had 1x absolute law in the board? I also want a serenity for affinity/mud but you need to mull to it or a tutor cause you certainly can't play it after a bunch of your critters are out.

Null Rod effectively stops a lot of artifact decks without affecting Revoker/Sculler. It does stop Vial and Equipment though.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Tim, do you think your t8 would have gone differently if you had 1x absolute law in the board? I also want a serenity for affinity/mud but you need to mull to it or a tutor cause you certainly can't play it after a bunch of your critters are out.

Not at all. I don't think he cast any red spells at me the second game. He just countered my turn 2-4 plays and then recurred EE until he got a Pithing Needle on Wasteland. I thought about putting Absolute Law in the board before for Zoo or Burn, but Chalice at 1 just seems better. I had also thought about a single Pithing Needle prior to the event just for Academy Ruins but didn't think I'd see it. Guess I was wrong :(

I used to play Serenity before I realized Null Rod shuts off artifact lands as well. Null Rod is definitely better than Serenity in this deck. It completely stops all mana production from Affinity and most of it from Meandeck MUD. It also effectively shuts off Welder, since their only red sources are artifact lands and Moxen, Forgemaster, and most of their other shenanagins.

Against Affinity a turn 2 Null Rod can make em scoop pretty quick.

[Einherjer]

Sorry I replied "to Thread" thought it was replying to the thread itself - sorry

so but now i got it - Hopefully

Im Sorry

Ok guys, may i show you my List? It might be a bit different - cause im using german Forums and just found the source - and im impressed by its members and the variety of decks :)
So i read alot of the posts here - combined em with the german suggestions + my own and thats the deck that came out:

Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flat
4 Godless Shrine
4 Scrubland
1 Plain
2 Swamp

Artefacts
2 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice / Got Body and Mind in Sideboard
2 Senseis Divining Top

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Serra Avenger
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt

Instants
Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach

Plainswalker
1 Elspeth, the knight errant

So thats my Deck, and i think it works good - but not perfect - what would you change?

Thanks very much for the answer and Farewell my friends