[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[sdematt]

I think if you plan to see Merfolk, you have to go with Peacekeeper. I don't want to go the Peacekeeper route because I don't like Jace in this deck as much as in others, but it's one of the few ways you can get there well. I was very much against the White Splash, as I loved the red splash for REB's, but against Merfolk, you don't get there. Firespout is fine against Gobbos and Elves, but Peacekeeper, as Rich said, handles Emrakul and Merfolk. I also think we should be playing 4 Nought and 4 Dark Confidant.

Rich, do you plan to include MM in your build?

-Matt

[The Atog Lord]

Yes, I plan to be playing 3 or 4 Mental Missteps. It is a great response to so many of the things that can plague this deck. In particular, it is the best answer to AEther Vial ever printed. That alone is a huge bonus. It dovetails with the mana denial plan (hitting Cantrips), makes Bob and Nought stronger by stopping a lot of removal, and makes Standstill stronger, especially on the play.

[keys]

MM will be an auto include. It's the ideal counter to go with Standstill, Nought and Dark Confidant. Besides, we'll need extra protection to fight opposing MM...

I think we can learn something from Sam Wang and Eli Kassis's 1-of Nought lists from SCG Boston. Trinket Mage is the glue that holds the deck together. At the very least, it leaves a body behind that will attack with Confidant and Factories, and this is more relevant than most would believe. If you play the tempo/control role long enough, 2/2s will eventually get there.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to be so eager to rush out turn 2 Noughts now that everyone and their mother is playing MM. Especially against Merfolk, like some are advocating. I think we should err on the side of too many Mages instead of Noughts.

A question going forward is how will we include enough 2cc cards for Counterbalance. Most lists struggle to reach 10 even with Standstill. I've tried to fill this gap with a Daze here, and a Spell Snare there, but it's tricky. I think MM has officially pushed STP out of the maindeck, and possibly out of the deck entirely.

[sdematt]

Has it been pushed out of your sideboard? What's your sideboard look like as of now?

-Matt

[keys]

I'm using an E-Tutor package:

3 Peacekeeper
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Energy Flux
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist/Crucible of Worlds (depending on meta)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Plains

[Jayman]

Hello everyone I'm new to The Source forums and also new to legacy. I have been playing only for about two months but have been heavily studying the meta. Dreadstill is the deck the that caught my attention and which I believe has some immense potential and I would like some of you more experienced players to help me out with my build.

Ubw Dreadstill

Creatures: 5
3. Dark Confidant
2. Trinket Mage

Artifact Creatures: 1
1. Phyrexian Dreadnought

Artifacts: 3
2. Sensei's Divining Top
1. Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 6
3. Counterbalance
3. Standstill

Planeswalkers: 2
2. Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries: 3
3. Thoughtseize

Instants: 19
4. Force of Will
4. Brainstorm
3. Mental Misstep
1. Daze
4. Stifle
3. Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 21
3. Wasteland
4. Mishra's Factory
2. Tundra
3. Underground Sea
4. Flooded Strand
2. Polluted Delta
1. Marsh Flats
2. Island

Sideboard: 15
1. Nature's Ruin
1. Perish
3. Peacekeeper
3. Extirpate
1. Tormod's Crypt
1. Relic of Progenitus
1. Pithing Needle
1. Plains
3. Leyline of Sanctity

Notes: The Leylines are in to fight all the Junk and black aggro decks that pack a ton of discard to protect your hand and blank some of their cards and I run brainstorm fetches and top to make sure I don't draw them later on. They also give you leverage on trash games such as against some random burn deck. The Extirpates are not just against combo and dredge but to also play thoughtseize followed by extirpate to blowout some games by taking out key cards of your oppenents. The 1 Daze is to force your opponent to play around daze and gives you another catch all counter besides FoW. I run only one dreadnought since I play a slower game wich tries to check for safety with thoughtseize then drop a 2 turn clock after I completely mess up their mana and hand. Missteps are in to answer problematic cards for I can safely drop standstill as well. So what do you guys think?

[KaNcEr]

Ok, so this isnt a traditional build of either StifleNought or Dreadstill. But let me know what you think...

Creatures: 14
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Trinket Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Artifact/Enchantment: 6
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Counterbalance

Instant: 18
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm

Land: 22
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland
1x Riptide Laboratory
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
1x Trinket Mage
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Basilisk Collar
3x Perish
3x Firespout


So, some card choice explanations:
Dark Confidant: Easily the second best card in this deck... right under top.
Grim Lavamancer: Lavamancer is simpley amazing. It alone auto wins VS merfolk PERIOD. Untill of course they find their 1-2 of kira, but by then you should have 12/12 or a counter for it. Its also randomly amazing VS almost everything else (cept goyf, KotR, and stalker).
Vendilion Clique: I think we can all agree that clique is just good. And if you've got an extra slot, clique is a shoe in.
Mental Mistep: OMG... thank you M:TG gods! I think that this card will single handedly put this deck back on the map. The most relevant targets for us will be of course Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Swords to Plowshares, and... Mental Misstep itself. But this card hits 100+ other relevant targets. On the downside opposing MMs will hit both nought and stifle. And the biggest advocate of 4x per deck will probebly be merfolk, but I have tested this list about... 40-50 times VS merfolk, and the match up is about 6-1 our favor (or my favor since you guys will probebly just ignore this whole post since there are no standstills :D ).
Riptide Laboratory: Ok, I know what your thinking.... WTF! right? But the thing is that riptide lab enables lavamancer (mage, bob, and clique although these are a bit more mana hungery) to chump goyf and KotR all day long. Plus, if you get into late game it has great synergy with clique... and mage after SB.

Sideboard:

Basilisk Collar: This comes in VS big stuff, like... Goyf, KotR, Stalker, Emrakul... what ev. Just strap it to your lavamancer and start swinging for the fences.
Perish/Firespout: Green creatures are too big for firespout, and non-green creatues arent green... makes sense to me.

[ivanpei]

@ Kancer, a few point:

Riptide lab sucks, if you are bouncing and redropping bobs/cliques/grims/mages, you are already in control and will win anyway. It's better to just play another wasteland.

4/4 split of Nought/Stifle effect is not a good ratio. You will be using your stifles for alot of things, like fetches! It's best to play Noughts + 2 as a general rule. I usually play 3 noughts + 4 Stifles + 1 Trickbind. Also, Trinkets find you noughts.

Snare is a little narrow right now, you could be playing better cards in that slot. I was playing a UBr list for a while and those lists are best with just 1 Nought because those decks concentrate on controling the board and winning the attrition war. If you want to be more combo-ish with more noughts, the UBw lists have been pretty successful. With the printing of misstep, the deck just got alot tighter.

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Top
4 Misstep
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Bob
3 Nought
1 EE
2 Trinket
4 STP

4 Wastes
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

No factories, no stills and no Jace. I think that we can afford to be quicker as Missteps helps protect a quick Nought. No Jace also means no Peacekeepers in the board unfortunately so I'll be playing Llawans + Needles to deal with folk.

[Beware]

I think you people are vastly underestimating how much more powerful Standstill becomes with Mental Misstep. I also feel Spellskite is a card that is being sorely overlooked in this deck. Of course, Spellskite is less good without Enlightened Tutor to grab it, but it has won me a significant enough number of games between 2 Spellskite and 4 MM. Spellskite on board means your opponent can not play the way they want, have to hold back removal, and can only get through with the most beastly of beaters.

[iPhael]

@Beware

I whole-heartedly agree with the Standstill comment, but I'm sure most would have trouble fitting Spellskite into the 75. The list is getting ridiculously tight. However, I do like him, as Swerve on a stick and a 2cc for Top seems really really good. I may try 20 lands and squeezing 1 in to the MB, or maybe dropping the Canonist's out of the side, but I feel that 21 is bare minimum with 7-8 colorless lands.

This is what I have been tinkering with: (in lieu of my recent fascination with the solo 'Nought)

6 Fetch
4 Factory
3 Waste
3 Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

4 Bob
3 Trinket
1 Nought

2 Jace

4 Standstill
3 Balance
2 Top
1 EE

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 MM
4 Force
2 Snare
1 Daze

sb:
2 Perish
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Peacekeeper
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Spell Pierce
1 Crucible
1 Pithing Needle

[KaNcEr]

@ Beware

I do in fact agree that standstill got MUCH better with MM. However Dark Confidant is simply worlds better in the long run IMO. And Grim Lavamancer makes our worst match ups 10x better. After playing fish/goblins with him, I dont think I can bring myself to cut the grim-ster. Untill those decks disappear of course. Standstill is just a terrible draw in those MUs (cept for FoW fodder). Plus (and probebly the best reason of all), you can drop factories. I cant count the number of times I've had to aggressively mulligan for blue land... seriously? that sh*t should not be an issue.
And Spellskite is actualy pretty amazing but like iPhael said... it will be difficult to fit it into our 75.

[James]

Hi everybody! This is my current UGB list.

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Trygon Predator

3 Thoughtseize
2 Smother
2 Go for the throat

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

6 Fetch
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
7 Islands

I have a couple of comments, I cut counterbalance + top because it is too slow. I also cut Engineered Explosives for the same reason, thus, Trinket Mages are not necessaries. Also no standstill because of my Confidants and aggro matchs.

1.- I don't know if I have to delete the 3 Thoughtseize because are not as reactive as the deck needs to be (i.e. the Thoughtseize don't let you mana opened for a Stifle, Brainstorm or Mental Misstep in the opponent's turn) but Thoughtseize provides a great advantage (seeing what your opponent is playing) and a sorcery to increase my Tarmogoyfs.

Do you think Thoughtseize would be better than (i) Spell Pierce, (ii) Daze or (iii) Ponder for more cantrip?

2.- And my other question is...Is a single Tombstalker too dangerous with the 3 Confidants? I think it is a great finisher in addition to the Goyfs and Dreadnought because of flying, I can cut easily a Vendilion or the Trygon for this 5/5 flying...or even I am thinking of Serendib Efreet. Any thoughts?

3.- Additional or massive removal is really needed? i.e. more Smother, Ghastly Demise or even Pernicious Deed??

Many thanks!

James

[kiblast]

Hi everybody! This is my current UGB list.

-list

I have a couple of comments, I cut counterbalance + top because it is too slow. I also cut Engineered Explosives for the same reason, thus, Trinket Mages are not necessaries. Also no standstill because of my Confidants and aggro matchs.

I agree with you regarding Counterbalance. I found myself in situations where I had Countertop lock ready turn 3 but with a single Goyf smashing my face for 5 turns into GG. That's why I cutted it for (additional) Snares and StP's. I honestly can't understand those lists with NO spot removals. Said that, Sensei's Divining Top are highly needed in this deck. They dig for solutions when the gamestate is not in your favor, they let you draw huge amounts of cards for free with Confidants. I'm currently playing 3 and I'd never play less than 2. I would not cut Trinkets and EE.

2.- And my other question is...Is a single Tombstalker too dangerous with the 3 Confidants? I think it is a great finisher in addition to the Goyfs and Dreadnought because of flying, I can cut easily a Vendilion or the Trygon for this 5/5 flying...or even I am thinking of Serendib Efreet. Any thoughts?

3.- Additional or massive removal is really needed? i.e. more Smother, Ghastly Demise or even Pernicious Deed??

I would not play Confidants without Tops, Thoughtseizes, 7 Fetchlands and a Tombstalker in the same deck.You could fit a Stalker as a random win con, but please play 2-3 Tops. I'd rather play Vendilion though, as it's easier to cast, comes EOT unexpected and it's a flexible card, amazing against Standstill and against Dredge, or even against opponents Vendilion (Vendilion in resp to Vendilion is very good). Also Pernicious Deed clearly doesn't fit Dreadstill. I hardly think I'd play any kind of mass removal, neither Deed or Damnation. If you want more spot removals instead, I suggest a combination of Go for the Throat (Smother if Affinity is overplayed in your meta) and Ghastly Demise.

Edit: Singleton Jace seems a bit random. Play 2 or don't play them. I found the more straightforward 3-4 Noughts version rarely wants to cast it, while most controllish versions want 2.

[ivanpei]

How about a set of spellskites instead of stp/counterbalance. That frees up more slots for card draw like stills and jace. Btw spellskite won me a game at prerelease. Its awesome. Note it redirects ABILITIES too, meaning you can redirect a pridemage activation!

Anyway I'm not a jace+peacekeeper fan in this deck. I love that combo in countertop thopthers or superfriends but In dstill, opponents still keep their removal in! Also this deck can't afford to play basic plains so folk still has outs to peacekeeper by nuking the tundra. Sad fact.

[Beware]

If a deck is running E Tutor, you definitely only need 2 Spellskite. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I am not totally on board the Lavamancer train. I also think a lot of people are downplaying how great Standstill is in the Countertop MU. Confidant is awesome, but I don't think cutting Standstill completely is the right call. How has Torpor Orb been working for people? It's mildly slower than StifleNought, but it gives you something to do with Stifle-less Noughts that have been collecting dust in your hand. Of course, Orb could only be worthwhile in lists running 3-4 Dreadnoughts.

[GexxX]

It's mildly slower than StifleNought, but it gives you something to do with Stifle-less Noughts that have been collecting dust in your hand. Of course, Orb could only be worthwhile in lists running 3-4 Dreadnoughts.

I loved to have double Dreadnought in play when i played 4 with 2Trickbind and 4 stifle. And it is definitely strong! You can race even really bad board positions with double-nought!
Still the ETutor Package seems like a really nice treat to play with. Need to test that! =)

[James]

@Kiblast

Many thanks for your comments much appreciated. I think 2 top are a good idea to improve my top deck and to avoid a high loss of life due to confidant+fetches+mental misstep.


Any comments on Thoughtseize??

[kiblast]

How about a set of spellskites instead of stp/counterbalance. That frees up more slots for card draw like stills and jace. Btw spellskite won me a game at prerelease. Its awesome. Note it redirects ABILITIES too, meaning you can redirect a pridemage activation!

I can understand you want Spellskite instead of Counterbalance, but what it does in substitution of StP? Also note that if your goal is to protect Nought, a single Spellskite eats 1 removal, while Countertop eats ALL the removals opponent is playing, with the ability of randomly countering other threats such as Jace, Humility, Moats, Shackles, Wog , or potentially bigger creatures like Terravore or KotR.Counterbalance is still superior, though I think is too slow.

[kiblast]

@Kiblast

Many thanks for your comments much appreciated. I think 2 top are a good idea to improve my top deck and to avoid a high loss of life due to confidant+fetches+mental misstep.


Any comments on Thoughtseize??

You said it by yourself. You already play Missteps and plenty other life loss sources. I would not play them. Anyway, in a deck packing 3-4 Noughts, Thoughtseizes are useless as:

- If you are going to discard a creature, that creature will probably be littler than your Nought ( you play 3 so it's very likely that you get fast Noughts that laugh in the face of Goyfs and Kotr)

- If you are going to discard a removal, that removal will almost always be Stp/Pte, and so counterable by Misstep (and if you go for the fast Nought route, you should play 4 Missteps).

- Each other threat is very likely going to be handled by the rest of your deck. Normally (always speaking about fast Nought route, which, looking at your list, seems the direction you want to take), you only need to counter 1 threat before they scoop. That's where Top shines finding extra stifle effects for EE's@1 or Pridemages, or Fow for Jaces, etc.

Ideally turn 1 Top, turn 2-3 Stifle Nought menas that you have 3 more card to fight Nought hate (and you need to fight it for only 2 turns...)...and this will probably be enough.

[Rico Suave]

Also this deck can't afford to play basic plains so folk still has outs to peacekeeper by nuking the tundra. Sad fact.

Why can't the deck afford to play a basic Plains? It's actually rather easy to stuff it into the SB along with the Peacekeepers, because frequently a basic Plains is good on its own even without Peacekeeper.