Your list looks amazing Slyper, I think it has a ton of potential.
Just a few small suggestions...
Replace Dismember with Shriekmaw as has been suggested. Dismember is the weakest removal in the deck (it either costs you way too much mana, or way too much life, to do what Go for the Throat does for far cheaper). Shriekmaw can do stupid powerful things with Volrath's Stronghold, or Dark Ritual or Jitte.
Make room for one more Swamp and one more Phyrexian Obliterator. The extra will go a long way towards shoring up the higher mana cost of Arena, Obliterator, Tombstalker and Jitte. Obliterator is a fantastic creature. In any aggro/aggrocontrol deck packing 20+ swamps, there is absolutely no good reason not to run a full playset. Your opponents removal will go towards Hyppes, Nighthawks and Tombstalker before they reach Obliterator.
Consider playing Inquisition of Kozilek over either Duress or Thoughtseize. This is just a suggestion, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like Inquisition works well in this deck. Duress just about always fizzles vs Goblins. I really can't think of any popular match ups where Inquisition fizzles. But again, this has been an ongoing debate so feel free to stick with Duress.
Something like this perhaps...
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Dark Ritual
3/2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2/3 Shriekmaw
2 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
21 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Thank you !Originally Posted by Clark Kant
You're right, I run a lot of removal. But, Shriekmaw ? I didn't even know it is played in legacy.
Since both of you suggest it, I suppose it is good, I will give it a try.
About IoK and Duress, I think it's just a metagame choice, Duress against Control and Combo, IoK against a more varied metagame.
Here is the list I will test :
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker
3 Shriekmaw
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress
2 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
21 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
I cut the Hyppes to keep enough discard but you can also do :
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress
+2 Hypnotic Specter
I think one more Go For The Throat is needed, but I don't know what to cut out.
I apologize for my bad english, it's not my native language.
Looks solid.
Yeah, I think cutting Hyppe is a good choice. Hyppe is great when ritualed out first turn. But your list plays so many other cards begging to be used with Ritual (turn one Phyrexian Arena or turn two Obliterator (after a turn one discard spell to check for removal) win games.
I don't think you need a third go for the thoat. You already have 3 Shriekmaw, 4 Gatekeeper, 4 Vampire Hexmage (death touch is removal), Jitte and Thoughtseize.
You can cut a Shriekmaw for the third Go for the Throat. It's a metagame choice based on how many black creatures you anticipate.
I think in most metas with MUD and Affinity, Doom Blade may be superior to go for the throat.
@Slypher: Your most current version of the deck, post#1329, seems like the best direction for The Gate with the new set release. My only suggested changes to the deck would be replacing Go for the Throat with Geth's Verdict, which with your mana base seems much stronger. I also beleive that running Inquisition of Kozilek is a stronger choice over duress. Don't run the Hypnotic Specters over your other choices, as he's too weak to compete these days. Shriekmaw is a brilliant choice as it provides an evasive beater with removal; awesome if used in conjunction with Volrath's Stronghold. I plan on playtesting this deck tonight.
If you are running Thoughtseize, the choice would be to run Duress over IoK. I'd either go 3 Seize/2 Duress. If anything, Duress can be used to get rid of their Force Of Will, which is something that IoK cannot do.
I'm going to jump in on the wasteland discussion. Running Wasteland without support of Sinkhole or stifle or Rishadan Port etc etc is pointless. Various Pro's agree. You do not net any tempo from doing so. Your trading 1 for 1, and you have zero other backup to try and color screw someone. Most decks are already playing more basics, to make decks than run more than JUST wasteland unable to disrupt them. When most decks in Legacy are already prepared to deal with a deck with 4 Wasteland and 4 Stifle, why do you think Wasteland will be effective? Half the time your opponent will actually wasteland your wasteland, setting you both back, except he may have further support to screw you over.
With that said, the best use of Wasteland is to hit utility lands. Most decks aren't running utility lands, and for the few that are, I say it's not worth it. Running Wastelands usually requires us to run a slighly higher landcount, and discount certain cards. Obliterator is infinatly better than Percy. He plays offense, defense, and doesn't have a drawback. He's an unblockable moat. He should be played. If you run Obliterator, you can play less Innocent Bloods, or less Cabal Therapys. And don't even try and proclaim Cabal Therapy as amazing, because other decks that run say, Thoughtseize and Hymm certainly don't run it. While I would maybe stick to a couple, I certainly would not run as many as most lists, heck some people run less than 3 Hymm just to fit Therapy.
Couldn't have said it better.
But I don't think Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy are still worth using without Persecutor.
Therapy seems inferior to both Duress and IoK and Innocent Blood is strictly inferior to Geth's Verdict. And I don't even want to play Geth's Verdict.
@Ramirez777 : I'm already playing a Edict effect as a 4-of (Gatekeeper), I think a spot removal is more usefull.
@IcedNeonFlames : I think 9 discard spell is a good number. You need 4 Hymn, but you can do whatever you want with the 5 other slot.
I apologize for my bad english, it's not my native language.
Why do people randomly throw wastelands into these decks? It's a symmetrical effect unless you run other manabase disruption like stifle...
If you run wasteland in this, you're stupid
I will make use of every tool that fate presents.
Comments like this pretty much show you have no idea what you're talking about and convey ignorance to this archetype in general. Symmetrical or asymmetrical; it doesn't matter. Running what are in essence four Strip Mines in a deck concurrently operating on one color is very effective and allows you to cripple an opponent's key mana sources early. Wasteland is a huge factor is knocking out cards like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, and other problematic lands which you would otherwise have to deal with without them. It sets an opponent back running Counterbalance-Top and forces them to make their investment more mana intensive.
Add the fact you run cards like Bitterblossom and you really want to be able to cripple an opponent early before they can recover.
Check this out.
Wasteland keeps opponents on their knees and allows you to setup your draws with discard much more effectively than you would without it. You force an opponent to play around it, which is key when you consider you run discard. If your land count is correct and can be sustained through the course of an entire game, you should have no problem running a full compliment of Wastelands as an offensive tool.
Wasteland was a primary reason I had so much success with this deck. Without it and Dark Confidant, it isn't even worth playing and pretty much relegates it to being another run-of-the-mill shitty Mono-Black variant, which it isn't. Wasteland is a personal choice by some, but to consider it a "random" addition by anyone cognizant of the intricacies of how good the card really is and can be is just ignorant.
What's your current list now, Hollywood?
I tried the new build of The Gate yesterday on Cockatrice...........man do I miss Wasteland and Bitterblossom. Wasteland could have dealt with Ports and Maze of Iths so easily, while Bitterblossom just cranks out a token each turn freeing up my mana to do other things.
I'll try to see if I can fit in Phyrexian Obliterator in the original The Gate shell, but that BBBB cost is being problematic with Wasteland.
Edit: More testing with and without Wasteland..............I wouldn't take it out. I cut off a Dark Horizons player off of white to prevent him from playing a removal spell. I got rid of their Maze Of Ith to let my Obliterator through. I used it to destroy Rishidan Ports that were tapping down my lands. It's useful to kill manlands.
About Shriekmaw: You're better off playing Doom Blade/Terror/Go For The Throat in that slot. It turns into a 1B kill spell at sorcery speed. Why in the hell should I pay 5 mana for a 3/2 in a deck where everything else is ridiculously undercosted?
Last edited by IcedNeonFlames; 05-11-2011 at 10:10 PM.
I've been using this list and it's a killer against creature based decks, while still not auto-scooping against combo. Resolving a Obliterator with MM backup makes combat impossible for Zoo, Merfolk, Gob, Goyfs, and anything else - and usually equates to a quick win. I might consider fitting Mindbreak Trap into the SB, but the lifeloss is significant w/ Bobs and MM, hence the exclusion of Thoughtseize.
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Mental Misstep
2 Go for the Throat
3 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamp
3 Wasteland
SB:
3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailor
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
Last edited by Vaxe; 05-12-2011 at 11:24 PM.
I like this list a lot, but what do you guys think about cutting Thoughtseize, a Tombstalker and a Shreikmaw for 4 Mental Misstep. It is a free counterspell after all.
I'm trying this list on Cockatrice:
3 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Dark Ritual
4 Go For The Throat
1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
1 Sword Of Fire and Ice
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine
2 Umezawa's Jitte
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Liking this so much more than the previous version (which had 3+ Shriekmaw, -1 Sofi, -1 SoFAF, -1 Go For The Throat). Shriekmaw was unimpressive.
I'm also going to try the regular version of The Gate by simply replacing the Persecutors with Obliterators. Let's see how that works out.
@Clark Kant : I would rather cut all the Thoughtseize for Mental Misstep, you don't want 6-8 spells which cost you 2 life to cast. But I agree, MM seem very strong. Counter Goblin's Vial while he is on the play is priceless.
@IcedNeonFlames : Is there a reason to play SoFaF over SoLaS ? With SoLaS you can take your dudes back from the grave, and gain some life. Pro Green is not so relevant, except for Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary which you can take out with GftT/Thoughtseize/Gatekeeper/Nighthawk...
I apologize for my bad english, it's not my native language.
First of all hi to everyone, I've been lurking this forum for a long time so I decide to join in :D
Im new to Gate and Im testing this list:
1 Volrath's Stronghold
20 Swamp
4 Vampire Nihgthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Inqusition of Kozilek
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Go for the Throat
4 Mental Misstep
2 Geth's Verdict
Sideboard:
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extripate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Perish
Games:
1:3 Affinity
2:2 Zoo
3:2 Reanimator (Damn you Iona :( )
2:0 Burn
2:0 Vial Goblins
3:0 Pox
2:1 Eva Green
2:0 MUD
2:0 Dreadstill
Tested on MWS
I would appreciate if you can give me some advice how to improve my build and don't be to harsh on me I'm a Gate noob :)
Sry for my bad english guy's.
And that's exactly what I said you should do in the post. You were only playing 2 Thoughtseize and said that you should cut out both of them, and Shriekmaw for Mental Misstep.
I actually like the idea of playing 3 Mental Misstep more than 4. It surprises your opponent, doesn't cost you too much life, and you are less likely to end up with dead multiples of it.
Mental Misstep completely displaces Thoughtseize. It's similar to thoughtseize only it costs your opponent one mana rather than costing you one mana, so it's a great tempo boost.
And with it in the deck, I think a 2/2 split between Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek sounds perfect.
Also, I think a 2/2 split of Doom Blade and Go for the Throat sounds perfect.
Doom Blade is better than Go for the Throat against many matchups. It can take out Metalworker, Arcbound Ravager, Lodestone Golem, Painter's Servant, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Kuldoza Forgemaster and several other annoying creatures. Geth's Verdict seems awful compared to both.
The deck seems to be solidifying around one optimal list.
20 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
6 Slots (Confidant+Metaslots vs. Tombstalker+Arena)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
2 Inqusition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mental Misstep
2 Go for the Throat
2 Doom Blade
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Now the big question that remains is regarding the last six slots...
3 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Arena
vs.
4 Dark Confidant
2 Metaslots (Can go to an extra Inquisition of Kozilek, an extra Go for the Throat, an extra Jitte or an extra Mental Misstep)
I took some time away from this deck and am starting to pick it up again. My list is pretty much the same as it was months ago when I was actively testing this deck. Bant and rock are picking up in popularity in my area and merfolk will be picking up again I'm sure when everyone playing it is playing mm. For reference :
18 swamp
4 wasteland
3 abyssal persecutor
4 dark confidant
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 vampire nighthawk
3 bitter blossom
3 umezawa's jitte
4 hymn to tourach
4 duress
3 innocent blood
3 go for the throat
3 cabal therapy
Sb
3 spinning darkness
3 faerie macabre (high tide and ichorid are popular)
3 dystopia
3 engineered plague
3 phyrexian revoker
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I was using it more for the secondary effects of SoFaF more than anything, plus I'd be playing the 3 best (non-banned) equipment ever printed. I never drew SoFaF when testing on Cockatrice, but SoFI = BEATING. SoLaS is good for recycling some of your dead creatures, which could be usefiul.
This is the list I going to run in a legacy tournament in my local store, if I can have a playset of Obliterator.
There is 61 cards MD.
@Joe_C : Persecutor is now inferior to Obliterator. Now we are trying to find a build with it.
@Clark Kant : Sorry, it wasn't what I'd understood.
Well, since Arena + Tombstalker is my idea, I'll go with it. But I can't blame people who want to play Bob
On another topic, do you think the price of Obliterator is gonna go up or down ? I can afford a 100$ playset, but not if it's a 20$ playset in two weeks.
I apologize for my bad english, it's not my native language.
It's going to go down. There's no good mono black control deck in Standard right now, so the price is going to go down, maybe to Grave Titan or Abyssal Persecutor prices. There's no reason for the card to be 25$ with no deck for it to go in (in Standard, anyway).On another topic, do you think the price of Obliterator is gonna go up or down ? I can afford a 100$ playset, but not if it's a 20$ playset in two weeks.
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