All B/R update speculation.

[perm]

Hymn to tourach is certainly the best discard in the game, but it's not broken in a format where turn one wins are possible. In fact, hymn to tourach is important for keeping black as disruptive as it is, and keeping combo in check.

[paeng4983]

having necro is just broken. cannot say the same with mindtwist though. but necro...its gonna get nasty.

yup. bringing necro into the current legacy will be a hell. not to mention, its going to be four copies in a DECK. *sigh*

[rnightingale]

I actually think they should ban hymn to tourach. There's no strategy with that card.

Impossible. Hymn is a balanced card that is exclusive for Black users. If Blue has FOW, then Black has Hymn.

Unbanning Mystical Tutor and Goblin Recruiter would be fine :)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Impossible. Hymn is a balanced card that is exclusive for Black users. If Blue has FOW, then Black has Hymn.

Unbanning Mystical Tutor and Goblin Recruiter would be fine :)

This is me disagreeing. Goblin Recruiter is absolutely insane. It is stone cold nuts in every way and it is precisely the kind of card we should not want in Legacy. First off, let me say, Recruiter takes absolutely forever to resolve. I know there are rules in place to prevent too much time being wasted but Recruiter basically says "Stack your deck" it takes a minute to resolve even if you know exactly what you are doing. Second, oh my god, you get to stack your entire deck!!! It's like 40 Worldly Tutors and a 1/1 for two mana, so nuts. Third, the format is in disarray right now, there is absolutely no reason to unban anything until at least a month after the GP likely more like 3 months. The format needs to settle. Everyone wants to put the nail in the coffin on Goblins and combo, but really it's too early to do anything of the sort. The metagame is heavy in control right now and the more people metagame their decks to beat control the more wide open they leave themselves to Goblins. Let's not forget what happened the last time the meta was this heavy in control (Back when 1.5 became Legacy and separated from Vintage and Survival and Landstill were the decks to beat) goblins was the deck that broke control wide open and ate it alive. Sure this time control has Misstep, but at the same time plenty of good goblins have been printed over the years and it's a deck that still has a lot of powerful plays without Recruiter. I think that regardless of our new counterspell anyone who sleeps on Goblins and thinks they are safe with a control deck because of 4 Missteps is in for a rude awakening.

Mystical Tutor will stay banned. They just banned it a year ago so they probably won't even consider an unbanning in the next 2 years.

Mind Twist at this point is nearly safe to unban. My main argument against it is that Mind Twist is a stone cold control breaker that is endlessly splashable and for a while control was just dead regardless and didn't need any more hurdles. I would just hate to see things get to a point where control mirrors come down to Mind Twist resolution, which was the entire reason for it's initial ban.

[bracer028]

This is me disagreeing. Goblin Recruiter is absolutely insane. It is stone cold nuts in every way and it is precisely the kind of card we should not want in Legacy. First off, let me say, Recruiter takes absolutely forever to resolve. I know there are rules in place to prevent too much time being wasted but Recruiter basically says "Stack your deck" it takes a minute to resolve even if you know exactly what you are doing. Second, oh my god, you get to stack your entire deck!!! It's like 40 Worldly Tutors and a 1/1 for two mana, so nuts. Third, the format is in disarray right now, there is absolutely no reason to unban anything until at least a month after the GP likely more like 3 months. The format needs to settle. Everyone wants to put the nail in the coffin on Goblins and combo, but really it's too early to do anything of the sort. The metagame is heavy in control right now and the more people metagame their decks to beat control the more wide open they leave themselves to Goblins. Let's not forget what happened the last time the meta was this heavy in control (Back when 1.5 became Legacy and separated from Vintage and Survival and Landstill were the decks to beat) goblins was the deck that broke control wide open and ate it alive. Sure this time control has Misstep, but at the same time plenty of good goblins have been printed over the years and it's a deck that still has a lot of powerful plays without Recruiter. I think that regardless of our new counterspell anyone who sleeps on Goblins and thinks they are safe with a control deck because of 4 Missteps is in for a rude awakening.

Mystical Tutor will stay banned. They just banned it a year ago so they probably won't even consider an unbanning in the next 2 years.

Mind Twist at this point is nearly safe to unban. My main argument against it is that Mind Twist is a stone cold control breaker that is endlessly splashable and for a while control was just dead regardless and didn't need any more hurdles. I would just hate to see things get to a point where control mirrors come down to Mind Twist resolution, which was the entire reason for it's initial ban.

control decks have so many counters, mind twist wouldn't even matter. and in any other deck, people don't usually pack a full 7 cards in their hands

[Koby]

control decks have so many counters, mind twist wouldn't even matter. and in any other deck, people don't usually pack a full 7 cards in their hands

That doesn't make Mind Twist any less devastating if they still rape your entire hand.

[Gheizen64]

That doesn't make Mind Twist any less devastating if they still rape your entire hand.

The old adage of "Twist break the control mirror" is stupid in a world where JTMS exist. Seriously.

[Whippoorwill]

From today's article about Modern:

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Ar...g/daily/ld/144

Data from tournaments held in previous Extended formats showed that Sensei's Divining Top takes too long to play with. When rounds go to time, everyone in the entire tournament has less fun. If Modern ever caught on seriously, we would likely have to ban Top, so we decided to reflect that in this experiment.

Not sure what to say that hasn't already been said regarding this.

Edit: Funny how they mention Legacy in the reasoning for the other banned cards, but not this one.

[DragoFireheart]

From today's article about Modern:

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Ar...g/daily/ld/144



Not sure what to say that hasn't already been said regarding this.

Edit: Funny how they mention Legacy in the reasoning for the other banned cards, but not this one.

They won't ban top because it enables Counterbalance, which keeps Storm in check.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also Top is the only thing that makes Brainstorm look sort of fair. If one gets the axe the other pretty much has to follow. Brainstorm's kind of skirting the edge as it is.

[(nameless one)]

I don't know about you guys but the last two GPs involved:

GP Madrid - Mystical Tutor
GP Columbus - Survival of the Fittest

So what's next?

[Gheizen64]

With this much MM around, should we consider some strong 1-mana cards for unbanning?




The triumvirate of tutors: Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial Seal (not considered for power level reasons, Consultation)




Mystical boost combo and only that (take everything vamp does except LED, no life, pitch to force, does nothing in aggro/control decks), while vampiric at least is usable in rock-like decks for silver bullets, but the instant speed make it too hard to play around. Seal would imho be strong but fine, but it cost way too much (300 dollars and it's usable only as a singleton in Vintage), it would need a massive reprint in some promo deck. This is extremely unlikely since it would probably piss out a lot distributors, so it's out of consideration too imho.
Consultation is not even considered since it has no disadvantage in a format without singletons, instant speed Demonic tutor for B, okay.



Mana acceleration: Mana Vault (not considered for power level reason, Sol Ring, Fastbond)




The big brother of Grim Monolith. At 1, this would boost artifact decks a lot and make a lot of lists start with:

4 Vault
4 Monolith
4 Keys

However, even like this, i don't think artifact deck would be good in Legacy. They need to be really, really broken (moxen + Workshop level of broken) to be playable (as a common deck, not as a rogue) when you have super strong cheap splashable hate for it.
The real problem is: would it be too good in combo? Probably, probably no. While it's a different format, we can look at Vintage to see what's the hottest thing in storm combo. And there Mana Vault is a highly debated slot. It's usually used when you use multiple FoF/Gift and the likes (so a lot of big colorless sinks), or when you run the tinker-robot plan as an alternate win to increase the artifact count. Cabal ritual is often used in its place. In legacy its biggest assets would be making T1 swamp, T2 AnT possible. I would like it unbanned to see finally more artifacts decks in the format, but it would be probably a tad too good.



WotC inside Joke: Land Tax




Too many words have been spent onto this card. This card is probably worse than Loam (Loam is: a lot less conditional, can take any kind of land, it's basically uncounterable, fill your graveyard for more targets, cost 1 more), and Loam while a good card, isn't nowhere near Bannable status.



The "fuck u control": Black Vise, Skullclamp




I'd really, really like to see Vise unbanned to fuck up all this blue and give a big boost to extremely aggressive aggro strategy coupled with mana denial strategy and burn (RDW with 4 vise, 4 waste 4 port, fuck u standstill <3). Sadly, Tomb for double vise T1 on the play is an opening that many players would loathe, and WotC would never unban it because "it's unfun" (because Tomb-> CotV for 1 is fun, really...) and because it make going first a much greater advantage (on the other hand, vise often sucks on the draw). I honestly believe that Vise wouldn't be even that good in this format where you can dump cards so fast if you need to, i'd consider it about as good as vial as an anti-control foil (vial is better after mid game, but it require you to run 20+ creatures and it's slower). Control wouldn't even need to change too many cards to adapt to it (Seal of Primordium/Cleansing are ok, kill equipments, Standstill if dropped first, Factories, dodge MM etc...) Prison is also non-existant in this format, so it's not like we could Vise into sphere ever efficiently with no Workshops/Moxen. That said, my opinion on the card isn't supported by anyone in the northern emisphere, so an unban is just extremely unlikely.
Clamp is just infinite card advantage for creature decks, and would probably kill any form of control in legacy should it ever be unbanned. The power level isn't comparable to Vise imho, this is like ancestral for creature decks. Also, SFM is good enough already.

[Shawon]

With this much MM around, should we consider some strong 1-mana cards for unbanning?

No. How does Mental Mistep makes Mystical Tutor safe to unban again? You don't really explain how Mental Mistep makes these 1cc cards or the decks that often play them subpar or fair. Did you put any thought beyond "Mistep makes all 1cc cards jank now lol?"

Mystical Tutor is still unsafe to ban. It's still dangerous in select combo decks, especially blue combo decks like Hive Mind and Spiral Tide, which are also capable of running Mental Mistep.

Ironically, I think Land Tax might be UNsafe to ban right now, even more so because of Mental Mistep. The metagame has slowed down and control decks are on the rise. Unbanning Land Tax is a matter of bad timing. Too many control decks will start using it and control mirror matches would be a nightmare to play out (or watch).

I do think Mana Vault should be unbanned, but not strictly because of Mental Mistep. Outside of artifact decks, the fast colorless mana it isn't that useful to other combo decks. Belcher? It makes Chrome Mox worse and it doesn't directly cast Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish. Just Charbelcher. While untapping with a ready-to-go Mana Vault make allow some powerful plays like a turn 2 Fact or Fiction in blue control, it's not very degenerate and the fact that the risk of walking right into a counter negates the explosiveness of Vault. In artifact decks, Mana Vault is pretty nasty but it doesn't address the issue that artifact decks can still get their shit wrecked by Energy Flux.

And Skullclamp is still too powerful.

[Gheizen64]

No. How does Mental Mistep makes Mystical Tutor safe to unban again? You don't really explain how Mental Mistep makes these 1cc cards or the decks that often play them subpar or fair. Did you put any thought beyond "Mistep makes all 1cc cards jank now lol?"

Mystical Tutor is still unsafe to ban. It's still dangerous in select combo decks, especially blue combo decks like Hive Mind and Spiral Tide, which are also capable of running Mental Mistep.

Ironically, I think Land Tax might be UNsafe to ban right now, even more so because of Mental Mistep. The metagame has slowed down and control decks are on the rise. Unbanning Land Tax is a matter of bad timing. Too many control decks will start using it and control mirror matches would be a nightmare to play out (or watch).

I do think Mana Vault should be unbanned, but not strictly because of Mental Mistep. Outside of artifact decks, the fast colorless mana it isn't that useful to other combo decks. Belcher? It makes Chrome Mox worse and it doesn't directly cast Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish. Just Charbelcher. While untapping with a ready-to-go Mana Vault make allow some powerful plays like a turn 2 Fact or Fiction in blue control, it's not very degenerate and the fact that the risk of walking right into a counter negates the explosiveness of Vault. In artifact decks, Mana Vault is pretty nasty but it doesn't address the issue that artifact decks can still get their shit wrecked by Energy Flux.

And Skullclamp is still too powerful.

Did you read what i wrote or just answered out of nerdrage? I didn't advocate any of the cards to come off the list except Vise and Tax (and i found both unlikely). I just said that with MM here (most played card at the GP, even more than force and brainstorm), the chance of countering strong 1-mana cards on the play is effectively doubled (4 FoW -> 4 FoW 4 MM) making those cards a lot less "unanswerable". That much is fact, and i see this as the perfect occasion for WotC to unban something since they printed such a strong answer card.

[Shawon]

Did you read what i wrote or just answered out of nerdrage? I didn't advocate any of the cards to come off the list except Vise and Tax (and i found both unlikely). I just said that with MM here (most played card at the GP, even more than force and brainstorm), the chance of countering strong 1-mana cards on the play is effectively doubled (4 FoW -> 4 FoW 4 MM) making those cards a lot less "unanswerable". That much is fact, and i see this as the perfect occasion for WotC to unban something since they printed such a strong answer card.

I don't care about your opinions on what should be banned or unbanned. My nerdrage is directed at the fact that you suggested the possibility of unbanning cards because of Mental Mistep's prevalence in the format. Your suggestion is shortsighted. Mental Mistep may be a convenient and efficient answer to Mystical Tutor or Black Vise, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous when they resolve. Mental Mistep is a good card and it gives blue control an advantage against combo and fast aggro decks, but it doesn't kill their existence as shown in the GP day 1 lists. All it does is make the matchups more favorable (but not unstoppable) for blue decks, but unbanning powerful 1 cc cards doesn't balance anything. It just unbalances the scale again. Also, did you stop to consider non-blue decks fighting against Mystical Tutor or Black Vise?

EDIT: If you aren't advocating any cards other than Land Tax or Black Vise off the ban list, then why are you suggesting that the other cards could be unbanned now?

[Gheizen64]

I don't care about your opinions on what should be banned or unbanned. My nerdrage is directed at the fact that you suggested the possibility of unbanning cards because of Mental Mistep's prevalence in the format. Your suggestion is shortsighted. Mental Mistep may be a convenient and efficient answer to Mystical Tutor or Black Vise, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous when they resolve. Mental Mistep is a good card and it gives blue control an advantage against combo and fast aggro decks, but it doesn't kill their existence as shown in the GP day 1 lists. All it does is make the matchups more favorable (but not unstoppable) for blue decks, but unbanning powerful 1 cc cards doesn't balance anything. It just unbalances the scale again. Also, did you stop to consider non-blue decks fighting against Mystical Tutor or Black Vise?

EDIT: If you aren't advocating any cards other than Land Tax or Black Vise off the ban list, then why are you suggesting that the other cards could be unbanned now?

Because i present point of discussion, pro and cons, to, you know, discuss things and say why or why not a card could be unbanned.
I could just say "fuck you unban this it sucks anyway", but that wouldn't this as constructive.

[GradStudentGuy]

Mana Vault I think would make MUD decks very consistent to the point that they can lock the game out turn one ~60% of the time if not disrupted. Turn one Lodestone Golem or other sphere effects would may warp the format.

[Shawon]

Mana Vault I think would make MUD decks very consistent to the point that they can lock the game out turn one ~60% of the time if not disrupted. Turn one Lodestone Golem or other sphere effects would may warp the format.

Lock out the game? How so? MUD already has the capabilities to make great turn 1 plays, but they hardly decide whether the game is over or not, especially if one of those sick turn 1 plays involves a summoning-sick Metalworker. Mana Vault drastically improves MUD's mana consistencies but it doesn't hurt its two biggest weakness: 1) finding a bomb and 2) playing through blue or removal, or both (Energy Flux).

[dahcmai]

Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.

[(nameless one)]

Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.

They can also do Sol Land + Grim Monolith. MUD Decks can easily power a Trinisphere out no problem but they don't run it. I still think Mana Vault is too much for MUD, though I hope the make a version that adds two mana to your mana pool and requires 3 to untap. Kinda like a Sol Ring + Mana Vault hybrid.