All B/R update speculation.

[(nameless one)]

I would love to see Land Tax get unbanned but as what was stated above, it will still be banned due to logistical reasons.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To recap my position, if I controlled the DCI I wouldn't ban anything this month. I would give serious thought to unbanning one or several of the following:


Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mind Twist
Shahrazad
Worldgorger Dragon

[lorddotm]

To recap my position, if I controlled the DCI I wouldn't ban anything this month. I would give serious thought to unbanning one or several of the following:


Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mind Twist
Shahrazad
Worldgorger Dragon

You dislike LED but you like Channel? Weird. I think Black Vise and Fastbond shouldn't be unbanned. Everything else, I couldn't care less about. Shahrazad will never come off, but have fun.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You dislike LED but you like Channel? Weird. I think Black Vise and Fastbond shouldn't be unbanned. Everything else, I couldn't care less about. Shahrazad will never come off, but have fun.

I don't dislike LED, that's just some Admiral Ackbar keeps saying. I think LED has proven to be a ticking time bomb and will most likely need to be banned at some point in time, but I'm not rushing towards that end. With much stiffer design constraints, I don't think Channel would necessarily be the same power level though. Producing colorless mana instead of colored is a pretty big deal, and double green isn't easy for any combo deck to get to atm. It might break the format, but I think it and Fastbond are cards that have sat on the banned list for so long that no one even thinks about them being there anymore. I specifically started out copying the entire list and deleted everything I could think of a really good reason for it to stay banned. I couldn't think of any amazingly compelling reasons to keep Fastbond and Channel on there. They deserve a chance to come out of a long retirement and at least be tried out.

[lorddotm]

I don't dislike LED, that's just some Admiral Ackbar keeps saying. I think LED has proven to be a ticking time bomb and will most likely need to be banned at some point in time, but I'm not rushing towards that end. With much stiffer design constraints, I don't think Channel would necessarily be the same power level though. Producing colorless mana instead of colored is a pretty big deal, and double green isn't easy for any combo deck to get to atm. It might break the format, but I think it and Fastbond are cards that have sat on the banned list for so long that no one even thinks about them being there anymore. I specifically started out copying the entire list and deleted everything I could think of a really good reason for it to stay banned. I couldn't think of any amazingly compelling reasons to keep Fastbond and Channel on there. They deserve a chance to come out of a long retirement and at least be tried out.

The problem with Channel is all you ahve to do is make GG then you win. GG pay 7 life and Belcher, or pay 15 and Emrakul, who really cares, you could even drop a Blightsteel and Greeves it up to kill someone. Getting GG is only a Land and a Petal/Mox/ESG away on turn 1.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem with Channel is all you ahve to do is make GG then you win. GG pay 7 life and Belcher, or pay 15 and Emrakul, who really cares, you could even drop a Blightsteel and Greeves it up to kill someone. Getting GG is only a Land and a Petal/Mox/ESG away on turn 1.

Yeah, but combo thrives on consistency, not potential. Like is your gameplan with Channel really to hardcast Emrakul? What happens turn two after Zoo's hit you with a Nacatl and has a red land open? Suddenly your entire deck sucks. Belcher, eh. I mean I guess you'd run Channel in CRET Belcher but that's a pretty fair combo deck imho.

[lorddotm]

Yeah, but combo thrives on consistency, not potential. Like is your gameplan with Channel really to hardcast Emrakul? What happens turn two after Zoo's hit you with a Nacatl and has a red land open? Suddenly your entire deck sucks. Belcher, eh. I mean I guess you'd run Channel in CRET Belcher but that's a pretty fair combo deck imho.

Channel could potentially allow for a Belcher list with Force. That kind of scares me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That doesn't sound very good, but I will concede that Channel is almost certainly the most dangerous card on that list.

I just don't think a card should be banned based upon raw speculation and fifteen year old memories.

[lorddotm]

That doesn't sound very good, but I will concede that Channel is almost certainly the most dangerous card on that list.

I just don't think a card should be banned based upon raw speculation and fifteen year old memories.

I have no idea, I'm sure there is something you can do with tons of colourless mana.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm sure there is, but the challenge is getting Channel and those game winners and the mana to cast Channel all together in your hand consistently, and in time to actually be able to enact this plan, and through Wasteland, discard, counters and the rogue Gaddock Teeg.

If I saw a list that looked actually broken, that'd be one thing. But it's no sin to win, or be capable of it. This is what I mean about people rationalizing the status quo, you suggest that a card that's clearly running over the format might be bannable and people freak out and call you a whiner. Suggest that a card that might form a good deck be unbanned and people act like you're crazy.

People talking about how it's "safe" to unban Land Tax is just fucking eye-rippingly tedious. Why not talk about unbanning some cards that aren't safe but that are interesting?

[lorddotm]

I'm sure there is, but the challenge is getting Channel and those game winners and the mana to cast Channel all together in your hand consistently, and in time to actually be able to enact this plan, and through Wasteland, discard, counters and the rogue Gaddock Teeg.

If I saw a list that looked actually broken, that'd be one thing. But it's no sin to win, or be capable of it. This is what I mean about people rationalizing the status quo, you suggest that a card that's clearly running over the format might be bannable and people freak out and call you a whiner. Suggest that a card that might form a good deck be unbanned and people act like you're crazy.

People talking about how it's "safe" to unban Land Tax is just fucking eye-rippingly tedious. Why not talk about unbanning some cards that aren't safe but that are interesting?

Like Mind's Desire?

I understand what you mean, maybe Channel is safe, I just don't think it is because of the history of the card, and absolute blow out potential. Usually paying 1 life for 1 of an effect is dangerous (ala Necro, Bargain, Channel, Fastbond, etc.)

Fastbond I want to be unbanned, I just dont think it will be. (Unless Fastbond gets paired up with lock pieces like Chalice and Trini).

[Tammit67]

I think lands decks would be damn scary should fastbond get unbanned. Every list runs intuition or enlightened tutor and tolaria west. Crucible + zuran orb for infinite life, a fetch to provide enough mana to do anything, ghost quarter to lock you out. I don't think it is a very safe unban.

I'd love to see desire come off, but I can only really say that Land tax is safe, and probably mind twist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think that Fastbond + Crucible + Zuran Orb/Ghost Quarter is a combo I can live with. That's not even remotely terrifying. I'm not saying it wouldn't make Lands a good deck, I'm just saying there's no way it can ever unfairly dominant.

@lorddotm:

Well, besides just not wanting to give more blue tools in particular, I've actually seen Minds' Desire lists that look scary. I haven't seen a Channel list that looks both powerful and consistent.

[Admiral_Arzar]

People talking about how it's "safe" to unban Land Tax is just fucking eye-rippingly tedious. Why not talk about unbanning some cards that aren't safe but that are interesting?

Oh shit IBA, I actually agree with something you said. The universe explodes tomorrow. Also, my name is ARZAR, not ACKBAR (yeah, it's not a trap).

Anyways, Channel scares me, for pretty much the same reasons Lorddotm enumerated. Actually, I think it wouldn't be too bad in Belcher - however, giving U/G SnT-esque decks a way to hardcast Emrakul on turn 1-2 (often with counter backup) strikes me as unnecessarily busted.

Fastbond is a lot less scary without Gush in the format. Those two simply cannot be allowed to coexist - it leads to insanity, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. By itself, I'm not exactly sure what it would do - probably enable a silly lands combo deck with Horn of Greed, which sounds entertaining. It might make Spring Tide really scary, also (Oh look, Turn 1-2 Time Spiral!).

If I were to make a list of cards that I would consider unbanning one at a time to (really) shake things up, it would look like this:

Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Land Tax
Black Vise
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Worldgorger Dragon
Fastbond
Goblin Recruiter

I would really like to say Mind's Desire as it's probably my favorite card in magic, but I'm not sure if the format is ready for the abomination of Long.dec (although there is a LOT of blue, so maybe). Note that I said "one at a time" - Mana Vault and Memory Jar unbanned at the same time would likely cause the format to implode.

Discuss, or just call me loony/stupid. Either one works, I suppose.

EDIT: @ IBA: my comments about you hating LED/storm (LED basically IS storm, as the archetype would be awful without it) were not based on this thread, they came from reading some rant by you a year or two ago about how the card was retarded broken and needed to go, even though it wasn't doing anything in the format. I have no idea what thread it was in.

[(nameless one)]

I would shit my pants if they unban Memory Jar. It would give Storm based combo a secondary draw engine and would certainly make Welder-MUD decks better.

It could even return a long lost archetype: Megrim-Jar.

[menace13]

Mana Vault... Yeah! Unban that, who doesn't love playing against turn 2(or turn 1 if colorless) Jace, Ad Naus, Tezz, Moat, Sneak Attack, Dream Halls, Elspeth, Jace, Belcher, Painter+Grindstone, Jace, Shackles, Crucible, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Jace, Forgemaster, Metalworker, Sword, Plating+their entire hand, Aluren, and lastly Jace.

[Solar Ice]

Jar is stupid broken (can't believe that people are seriously discussing unbanning it). Fastbond? LOL. Facing Lands with 4 of those is something I never want to experience. That card is insanely imba as well and would pretty much force people to run it or get far behind in the game. As much as I love Desire, if it were to be unbanned, then LED, Ritual and possibly Petal would have to get the axe straight away.

The only cards that can, imo, safely be taken off are Mind Twist and Earthcraft. Land Tax is worth considering although it is +3 CA for 1 mana every turn, albeit conditionally.

Just remember that it is not like Vintage where a restricted card can only be played as a singleton so even if a card is busted, as a one off it may not show it's true power. Unbanning anything in Legacy means that an entire playset is allowed. Imagine decks sporting playsets of Jar, Bond, Vault, etc...

[Lemnear]

Land tax feat. Brainstorm and Jace means Ancestral Recall off a one-mana-enchantment everything turn!

SCG's Carsten Kotter did those kind of shenanigans with Squadron Hawks in our latest tournament in Berlin and won the whole thing by multi hawk-cestral-ing every game. I guess he'll drop some lines soon, so I won't post any details now.

[Gheizen64]

Land tax feat. Brainstorm and Jace means Ancestral Recall off a one-mana-enchantment everything turn!

SCG's Carsten Kotter did those kind of shenanigans with Squadron Hawks in our latest tournament in Berlin and won the whole thing by multi hawk-cestral-ing every game. I guess he'll drop some lines soon.

Loam do that without having to stay on one land against Zoo/Goblin/Merfolk.

[Lemnear]

Loam replaces the regular draw by it's dredge ability, works only well with multiple lands in the grave and once you shuffle them all via Brain-/jace-storming into your library the cardadvantage is gone. That is a significant difference