Thoughtseize can take ANYTHING down that is on his hand, while Misstep can only take down cc1 that is beeing played.
Catch my drift?
You can not compare those two....
Mental Misstep:
+ can be played T0
+ instant
- passive play
- only useful against CC1
Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK:
+ active play
+ can be used to play important threats/tools through enemie's countermagic
+ can be used to deal with differend kinds of opponents threats/problem cards
+ you see the opponents hand, plus: synergy with Cabal Therapy
- Sorcery
- cannot be played T0 to kill "important" firstturn drops
Let's think about a list of first-turn drops / 1cc-Spells "scaring" us. When there are ways of handling them, we're fine I think.
We are not playing a tempo-based deck here. Question: Why should we (always assumed there are no 1cc based tempo-cards forcing (!) us to react here) carry even more tempo based cards then we probably do with rituals?
Even the ritual builds have proven that they bring a lot of inconsistency to this archetype by adding possible dead draws mid/lategame and horrible card-disadvantage if our powered-out-cards are dealt with much cheaper spells.
Resolved tempo can seal the deal but there is a not small amount of risk being taken into account, too. There is "just" a draw engine (if not removed early) trying to help us to compensate this hole/dead cards in our hand. No tutoring, no deck manipulation, nothing.
I'm playing 4 Bobs + 2 Arenas atm which differs from most lists here and even then there are enough games where just no carddraw sticks long enough to make a difference.
I keep losing to Iona in Reanimator and Dredge. Thoughts?
extirpate and tomrod's crypts. you need hate.Originally Posted by Derm
another topic: we need something to deal with artifacts. Those annoying ass swords and jitte are getting really annoying.
Also, i'm having a huge problem with humility.
also the new surgical extraction could help if you are on the draw against iona from reanimator or dredge, otherwise fearie macabre is a well established card for that purpose
If you don't play with Tops, you could pack 3-4 Null Rod's and or Needles in your sideboard. Needles are the better option i guess, since they don't shut off your Jitte.
Versus Enchantments like Humility, there only is Dystopia (and maybe Disk, but Disk is way too slow imo).
I've been playing this build of The Gate recently...
21 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mental Misstep
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
It's working beautifully. The mana curve is just about pitch perfect, all the cards are bombs, and work very well with each other.
I'm convinced this is close to an optimal list for abusing Obliterator. Perhaps a Volrath's Stronghold in place of a Swamp could work well, but that's about it.
What would you suggest in the sideboard? Jitte/bitterblossom/extirpate/tormod's crypt/needle or revoker?
This is what I'm going to be trying:
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Go For The Throat
3 Innocent Blood
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Ptihing Needle
2 Dystopia
3 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Some reasoning:
Using the Obliterator taxes our mana base way too much if I don't plan on using Dark Ritual (which makes it inconsistent) or omitting Wastelands (which hits all sorts of utility lands as well as cutting off colors from opponents), so I'm trying a 2/2 split between the fatties.
Thoughtseize is there to preemptively get rid of problematic creatures as well as being able to hit business spells that IoK cannot hit.
For the sideboard:
Extirpate is against the new MUC/UW-Landstill decks. They run so few threats that getting one to hit the bin then extirpating it can be pretty much game. The 1/1/1 split between the graveyard hating artifacts is to prevent an opposing Pithing Needle or Revoker. Needle is a swiss army knife, hitting all sorts of targets.
Dystopia is great against Green and White decks, and Null Rod is to target Affinity.
I don't think a build can support even a single Obliterator if it foregos playing both Dark Ritual and Wasteland.
I also think it's a mistake to opt to play one or the other. This deck does great at controlling/disrupting the board but fundamentally has difficulty finishing your opponent off. It doesn't help that both Obliterator and Persecutor have a giant target painted on their heads saying Swords me. It works really well to play both, along side 4 Rituals to accelerate into them consistently.
I've been trying out a ton of different variations on the deck ever since Obliterator got unveiled and I finally stumbled onto what I think is the absolute ideal version of the deck.
It's actually two slight variations on the same deck and curve, but with one geared to an aggro dominated meta, and the other geared to a combo and control dominated meta.
Here they are...
For an aggro dominated meta...
21 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor
For a combo/control dominated meta...
21 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
4 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor
Before you dismiss these lists, I urge you to try them, they actually work really work and curve out beautifully.
What are your thoughts on replacing Innocent Blood with Geth's Verdict. What do you guys think, does it screw up the mana curve too much to make that change?
I've been toying around with various configurations and here is my newest list. I'm quite happy with it...
21 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3(2) Rite of Consumption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Go for the Throat
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3(4) Nyxathid
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
It's still experimental, but the cards work very well together. Culling the Weak, as janky as it sounds, combos really well with Persectuor, Obliterator, and Nyxathid to end the game. So it has 10 very powerful maindeck cards that it combos very well with. It also combos with Confidan to gain you life and buy you time all while at the minimum, shocking your opponent.
I´m wondering why nobody runs Disfigure. It is really good removal for only B, gets rid of most legacy creatures (Lackey, Bob, lavamancer...) and makes some combat tricks possible (nighthawk blocking goyf AND surviving it). I like it better than Go for the throat.
Also, i strongly recommend Phyrexian Revoker mainboard as he is useful in every single game.
I think Cabal Theraphy is actually really good right now. Best cards with Therapies are Bitterblossom and Bloodghast, wich is also very good against standstill if we are playing wastelands and works as a clock with smallpox.
I have found an interesting list on tcdecks: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...1&iddeck=44767 that use this idea, what do you think?
Awesome list. I think you meant Rite of Consumption when you wrote Culling the Weak.
Could also work with Bloodghast instead of Nyxathid and Innocent Blood/Cabal Therapy instead of Rite of Consumption.
Random question, but has anyone considered Phyrexian Crusader as a decent card choice? It seems to me that putting one on the table essentially wins the game against Zoo and Goblins.
Just an idea. Might be worth some testing, might not be.
Look about 10-20 pages back...
Yes, several people have.
Why are you guys disregarding Bitterblossom all together? I'd say that it's the best way to beat the control decks that we have.
I'm thinking of putting in a 4th one in the sideboard just to board it in against Landstill/UW-Batterskull decks.
I would never take out bitterblossom in the gate. Its one of the best cards in the deck.
I don't understand why people stop reading/searching the previous pages.
Please use the search function if you want to know if something has been talked about already.
If you don't know how that's done: find out or read the previous pages manually (hint: there are more than two ;)).
This thread and the forum in general loose their clarity and logical consistency if everyone asks "has this card been concidered already?" without previous checking.
When there are no hints for a previuous discussion or maybe new circumstances/contexts the card/thought has not been talked about in, feel free to come up with it.
New thoughts are very much appreciated but please don't use this thread as a recycle bin :).
Thanks.
Here is my list that I plan to test this weekend.
20 Swamp
2 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Dark Confidant
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Duress
2 Geth's Verdict
3 Smother
2 Innocent Blood
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Bitterblossom
Sideboard:
2 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Innocent Blood
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
I was first thinking to play 2 Pithing Needle in main, but changed my mind about that.
Any ideas are welcome.
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