Thanks for the advice.
Force was the first thing I would usually cut as you mentioned. I think the most I boarded in/out was 7 for Misdirection, Divert and Blood Moon. I cut 4 Force, 1 Stone, 1 Servant, 1 ??? since I figured I could just Intuition for them as needed. I see what you mean about not boarding those out though.
I really like the Thopter Sword idea, so I'll have to try that out once I finish my set of Transmute Artifacts. One thing I'm curious about is the Top count. Have you ever wanted the entire set of them or has 2 (+Trinket Mage) been the perfect number to make sure you get them?
Ancient Grudge is really nice tech, definitely going to have to use that one.
Thanks again for the advice.
Di, your mainboard is 59 cards by my count. Also, what do you do against a resolved Humility? Have you considered Engineered Explosives in the side?
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Oops, the Intuition/Trinket Mage slot should be 2, not 1. I fixed it on the list.
Humility isn't an issue, as it doesn't affect Painter's Servant at all (Has to do with layers, there's a thread on it in the Card Interactions forum if you want to know the specifics), and it doesn't do anything to ThopterSword. It hurts Goblin Welder I guess, but given it doesn't stop any of my win conditions I don't care about it.
I've also had Engineered Explosives in the deck before, but greatly dislike how it generally hits as many of my permanents as it does for the opponents. It isn't worth blowing something up if you nuke your own Goblin Welder or Grindstone or whatever.
I'd like at least one additional Top, but I'm not sure what I'd cut for it. I'm sure I could find the space, but it's difficult because I run additional cards in those slots that aren't typically seen in Painter lists (namely Needle and Ensnaring Bridge maindeck), and I'd have to cut either of those or the 21st land to squeeze them in, but I like the flexibility those artifacts offer in the maindeck, and I greatly like having 21 land to consistently hit land drops and fight Wasteland. I've been happy with the list so far, but it's definitely the next slot I'd add in the deck if I can manage it.I really like the Thopter Sword idea, so I'll have to try that out once I finish my set of Transmute Artifacts. One thing I'm curious about is the Top count. Have you ever wanted the entire set of them or has 2 (+Trinket Mage) been the perfect number to make sure you get them?
Last edited by Di; 06-05-2011 at 01:05 AM.
I play a super protected combo now, with decent success. The format has slowed because of misstep and you no longer really need the speed of LED IMO. I play the normal list with - 2 mage, - 3 LEDs, +4 Misstep, + 1 REB. Having 3 REBs is important so you can intuition for them as outs to Needle or revoker etc. I've found that I like playing without LEDs and even though I run so much protection, it frees my missteps to be fired of on Turn 1/ Turn 0. Missteping a T1 play from the opponent really slows them alot, usually by 2 turns or more (from killing me).
I play tested this deck alot over the weekend at GP Singapore with Singaporeans and my good testing buddy Andrew. Slow rolling is optimal right now. I get trashed so much with hymms and removal that LEDs are a huge liability and dangerous to run IMO.
BTW, I met the professor at GP Singapore, he was flipping through my folder and recognized my Avatar Brainstorm-Jace alter in my folder. LOL, he was a really cool guy and we were hunting staples at the booths.
Di, your list is only like 4 cards away from mine, but I still think it's a sin to play anything less than 4 Painter and Grindstone (I leave Needle and Bridge in the SB). I also think Wurmcoil/Battlesphere is much more effective as a secondary win condition, because you only need 1 tutor and you don't need to splash white. I've hardcasted them plenty of times off of Monolith, too. You can't do that turn 3 with Sword of the Meek and start bashing.
I enjoy the ability of being able to grab the bullets game 1. You lose a little bit of consistency, but the benefit of being able to sit under Ensnaring Bridge against aggro or use Needle on a Pernicious Deed game 1 is huge to me.
Also, I don't believe a giant robot is necessarily a better secondary win condition given the matchups we want them for. I won't deny they're strong, because I run Wurmcoil myself, but ThopterSword accomplishes a lot and gives the deck great flexibility. Sure, you can hardcast a robot on turn 3 or so, but that doesn't mean you still aren't vulnerable to Swords. Hell, Jace owns both of them as well. They're just much more vulnerable. Although it's slightly more difficult to pull off, ThopterSword is insane in pretty much every matchup. You do have Transmute to help supplement that. On top of it making it easier to find them, ThopterSword is at least better to dump off Transmute. It's just won far too many games for me to write off, and it's not an issue of testing one or the other, because Wurmcoil is in my deck, but as someone who has access to both of them, I'll say that ThopterSword is definitely the ideal alternative win condition for the deck. Sure, Sword of the Meek is rather weak on its own, but Thopter Foundry pulls it's weight admirably. It's synergy with Goblin Welder is incredible, and it's great for stalling aggro. Not to mention it's easily castable turn 2 and pitches to FoW. Robots are great if you can get them in early, but I've had several occasions where I'd be stuck with them in hand because my manabase is disrupted.
@ keys, how goes the grim-transmute list? Ive only found it worth running if I run 4 transmutes and 1-2 intuitions. What I missed was intuition's double tutoring (with welder) and intuitions straight 1 for 1 instead of a 2 for 1 like transmute. I found that the transmute version is sometimes really good say against goblins, folk or anything without plow/jace/path because wurmcoil just smashes face and is really easy to grab of transmute or to hard cast. However I get pawned by the blue decks with white removal because transmute is card disadvantage and rfg/bounce makes wurmcoil a sad panda.
You're right that Transmute does not grab both combo pieces, that's why I think it's wrong to play less than 4 of Painter/Gridnstone in a Transmute deck. The goal is to find one of the 8 cards with Top and Brainstorm, and then Transmute to get the other half.
This deck should never lose to Merfolk. They just don't have enough removal to deal with Welder and Painter, and blasts own them. Goblins can be more difficult, because they have Weirdings/Incinerators and artifact hate post-board, and blasts are dead. But it's still a favorable matchup.
I wouldn't go for the secondary win condition in either of these matchups, unless something like Needle makes it necessary (this is the biggest reason for playing a secondary win con like Wurmcoil maindeck). It should be noted that Needle hoses Thopter Foundry, too.
Also, Battlesphere doesn't lose to Jace.
Hi there. This is actually my first post on The Source. >_>;
I've been playing U/B Painter for a long time now (I put it together immediately after Shadowmoor's release because I'm weird and play rogue-ish tier 2 decks in legacy), and I've been wanting to update it.
My old list was essentially this, which is nearly three years old: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/2976
Mine had random Stiflenaught as backup, but still. Various things in the meta game are making this really hard to play now, though, and Goblin Welder looks like the obvious inclusion to get around my problems.
A good portion of the cards to improve it (by that I mean switching to U/b/R), though, are ones I don't have at the moment. I've got the Volcanic Islands to include red, but I'll be adding Goblin Welder, Transmute Artifact and Intuition to the build shortly. I was wanting to get some insight before I made the huge splurge, lol.
My U/B list was essentially a Counterbalance list with Painter's Grindstone thrown in plus Dark Confidant. <_<;
I was wondering how something like this would fare:
4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant
4x Brainstorm
3x Transmute Artifact
4x Intuition
4x Force of Will
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ensnaring Bridge
I've still got to squeeze 3-4x Mental Misstep in there somehow, too. lol. I'm having a debate about whether or not to include Trinket Mage, but Intuition and Transmute hit everything whereas the other does not. Should I include a single Engineered Explosives, Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg? I don't really recall having that big of a problem with Landstill that Powder Keg was necessary with my old deck (as it's biggest advantage is that it can destroy animated lands while Ratchet Bomb can't), so I can't imagine this one having a bad matchup there either.
Anyway, should I ditch Counterbalance for Mox Opal and a single Lion's Eye Diamond? I realize this one would go much slower, but my meta is full of Storm (I'm of the few that still has to play against Solidarity). I'd be dropping around $300+ to finish this off, so any feedback from people more experienced with red would help.
I would drop the Counterbalances since the deck is more focused on the combo than controlling the game. I would go with Di's version since its quite similar and works well. And if Storm is the most commonly played in your area, you could just add more Canonists to the board.
I cost myself the Top8 of a Mox tournament this past weekend. I was playing against a good Junk player(who made Top8) and I'm down to 2 life staring down a lethal board, I have Top, Painter, and 4 lands and a Opal in play. During my upkeep I top in to Transmute Artifact, Welder, and Ancient Tomb and I concede thinking I can get Grindstone but don't have the mana to activate. I look at my fourth card after conceding and it's the one-of LED!!! I ask my opponent did he have a removal in his hand and he said no. What I could have done was drawn the Transmute Artifact, use Top to move the LED(which is the third card after drawing Transmute) on top then tap Top to draw it. With three mana left I would Transmute my Opal in to a Grindstone and activate with LED. I had never experienced tilt before, and needless to say I was very tilted after that with my hands shaking. It was a good lesson for me, to never concede until I'm 100% dead. But I bring that situation up on here to show just how powerful the deck can be, with a empty hand and the opponent having a ridiculously overwhelming board position I had the chance to just outright win.
One thing I wanted to mentioned that many of you already know is what a hurting Pernicious Deed is. Out of six rounds and 60 people, I went up against the only three BUG Landstill/Still-less that was there and the previously mentioned Junk. All four of those decks ran Pernicious Deed and what a beating that card is, I regretted removing the Pithing Needles from the board. BUG Landstill/Still-less is such a beating, every card is either counters or creature kill along with cantrips to dig for them and bombs in Pernicious and Jace. The first two BUG Landstill players I beat 2-0 barely, in one of the games fighting against two Deed activations and still winning. The key was I rarely put down artifact mana, instead Brainstorming them away, and 4x Blood Moon from the board helped G2s. The third BUG Landstill player, I lost 0-2, G1 I had a strong hand I couldn't let go of but it only had artifact lands, after a huge counterwar over a Deed I was left with nothing. G2 he had waste-loam-lock turn two before I could cast Blood Moon. I was expecting a lot of wastelands so I removed a Volcanic for another basic Island which helped a lot, getting red when I needed it was never a problem. Also Spellskite made Burn easy.
I had tested extensively with Counterbalance maindeck and sideboard, even building the combo around it and it just doesn't work as well. The past year I've built and played mono-r Imperial Painter, NL-Painter, UWR Bomberman-Painter, and I'd say the current UR version is the best.
Last edited by PanderAlexander; 06-07-2011 at 09:20 AM.
Hey Di,
How is your toolbox build working for you (the one with ThopterSwords combo)? Also is anyone still doing a MUD sideboard hybrid?
Also, I was thinking instead of LED, if Grim Monoliths can be use since you don't have to discard your combo protection and it can be used as a Transmute Artifact target to fetch something like Wurmcoil.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@PanderAlexander -- Sorry what is "tilt"? But yeah I can totally relate to that experience. Did a blind draw with a top into my 1 of LED to win a critical game. What list you use on that day?
@Pook & Pie -- If your planning on building your deck with more than 2X transmute artifact then i would suggest you follow Di's deck. His design interacts more with the rest of the pieces of the deck. If you really wish to use counter balance i would suggest the following Noham Maubert Deck Variant (bazzar of moxen), and do a little updating on it :D (add mental missteps etc.)
@Ivanpei-- Dude it was totaly awesome meeting you man!! Your alters are CRAZY NICE. I cant believe I met you, such a tiny world. Did you know I totally forgot what I was suppose to look for after looking at your binder? Failed to get myself some transmute artifacts cuz I forgot haha You got sources @ your area for that card?
@Patrunkenphat7 -- Dude totally sorry for not replying to your messages!! Was out of the country and did not bring my laptop (ask Ivanpei lol).
What do you guys think about adding a section in the Primer for SB choices and its MB replacements? Or is that too much information that might be detrimental for us players in general? If you guys are okay i'll probably post a list of decks and you guys give me suggestions on SB choices for them that way I'll compile our community knowledge and "summarize" it.
SB Options: (example)
BURN
Spellskite -- Usual slot replacements are: Trinket mages/Pyroblasts
BUG/LANDSTILL
Blood Moon --Usual slot replacements are: ...
How do you guys handle the Zoo/Maverick matchups? I've found that these spot removal heavy decks are nearly impossible to beat, especially post-board.
This is essentially the sole reason why I'm still running Trinket Mage over Intuition, and a singleton Pithing Needle maindeck. Trinket Mage is a decent tutor, and granted Intuition is stronger, but having the option of fetching a Needle against shit like Pernicious Deed is huge game 1, because that matchup is so difficult it's worth losing the slight amount of consistency (for me, it's running one less Painter/Stone) in order to have a stronger fighting chance against decks with Deed. The deck has enough search and tutoring for consistency that I feel the addition of Needle and access to it makes it worth its slot. Pernicious Deed is just such a blowout for the deck that it's worth having a means to stop it. Or at the very least, have access to them out of the board. It's pretty much required at this point.
And thank God someone else has liked Spellskite. It has turned matchups like Burn completely upside-down.
It's working very well. I feel it has the most flexibility out of any of the Painter lists out there due to it's variety of win conditions. Running the full set of Transmute Artifacts is great for the toolbox and keeps the deck incredibly consistent, although I am gunning towards fitting a 3rd Sensei's Divining Top into the deck to make it moreso. Having access to something like Ensnaring Bridge game 1 is awesome, as many decks can't win through it, or at least can't very easily. My build of the deck also has a lot of outs in bad matchups that many lists do not, which is nice. That's essentially seen just by looking at the decklist, though.
The last ~4 pages or so gloss over Grim Monolith and Transmute Artifact, so if you read that then you'll get some insight into builds utilizing Transmute Artifact have shifted to Grim Monolith over LED, or at least have reduced LED to a singleton. The non-Transmute/Intuition builds have shifted towards only 1 LED maximum, because the deck can afford to slow down now thanks to additional protection. Otherwise, there isn't much benefit to running Grim Monolith. If you're playing an Intuition-based build, it's slower than LED and can't do tricks with Welder as well, and the primary reason it's run in Transmute builds is because it's a good mana source that happens to be an ideal dump for Transmute Artifact. Given that LED is really only seeing play as a singleton in essentially both builds, it doesn't make sense for an Intuition-based build to make the switch, and the Transmute builds already run them anyway.
Zoo can be a difficult matchup due to their high amount of spot removal, but it's not impossible. It really depends on the Painter build though. I feel my own build (seen on the previous page) has a better chance against Zoo because it has access to ThopterSword, Ensnaring Bridge, and Pithing Needle on Pridemage game 1, all of which help tremendously. If you're running a more traditional Painter list it is much more difficult, and you essentially need to sit on multiple Missteps/Blasts to protect Painter.
The best card for sideboarding against Zoo is Spellskite, which I've recently realized is insane. It will not only divert all removal towards it, but it at least will block Nacatl's and lone Pridemages and such. It's pretty awesome. I'd also board Needles to handle Pridemage and possibly Lavamancers if you're more worried about Welders being picked off. Needle combined with Ensnaring Bridge can act as a sort of lock as well if you can keep your hand low and force them to either burn you out or find Krosan Grip. Wurmcoil Engine is also pretty ridiculous in this matchup if it doesn't get hit with Path to Exile, although Intuition builds have difficulty getting it into play. This is also one of the few matchups that I consider keeping most of my Force of Wills in, because many times they will be banking on a single Pridemage or removal spell, and having that many outs to stop them can be huge.
I'm surprised you'd have difficulty with a matchup like Maverick though. The fact that they don't have red or blue in their deck makes them incredibly vulnerable to us. They only have Swords and Pridemage as removal, and Pridemage generally is only run as a 2-3of, but they do have Wastelands. Still, their clock is much slower than Zoo's, and they don't have near as much spot removal. If you stick a Goblin Welder against them then you're essentially free to wreck havoc on them. I've pretty much never been worried about playing against this deck at all because of this.
If you're that worried about Maverick, then boarding in Spellskite and Needle is likely the best case scenario. Spellskite will block and also soak up a removal spell, and Needle will shut down either Pridemage or Wasteland. Otherwise they don't really have much that can stop you when you still have Force and Misstep.
hey there,
i played this deck online with cockatrice a few times and it's so much fun to play it.
i really would like to pick this up irl (besides the inexpensive stuff, i only have to get the stones, the LED and the transmute artifacts yet), but i'am still wondering, whether this deck is only strong, because it is not popular (yet).
your opponents only have to waste one sideboard slot (emrakul, gaea's blessing and so on) to turn our two card combo into a three card combo. if you compare this to dredge vs. grave hate, "painter hate" seems to be much more reliable, because you don't even have to draw the hate. and normally there is a huge difference in consistency between a three and a two card combo.
or is the combo still consistent enough? for example, welder with two activations and an intuition pile like painter, stone, crypt is still a two card combo.
maybe it is also possible, that this deck will never get popular enough, due to it's "complexity", to be hated by emrakul one offs in the sideboards? for example, despite the banning of mystical, ANT seems still to be a very powerful deck, but barely anybody plays it anymore, because it seems to be much more difficult to play it properly now.
what do you think?
I think I may return back to the Trinket Mages as well. Out of those 3 BUGstill decks, two of them ran four Pernicious Deeds maindeck, it was brutal. It lets me free up a precious sideboard slot since with them I can go down a GY hate.
A term mostly used in poker, when a players lets their emotions cloud their judgment after something bad or frustrating happens, it's called going "on tilt."
I ran the typical list but with -1 Ancient Tomb -1 Volcanic for +1 Island and +1 Transmute. Also I ran the full set of Mental Missteps which were MVP all day. I also kept some red blasts in the main which won me a G1 against some Deadguy Ale variant that ran True Believer and Mother of Runes main deck. This was the first time I played the deck in a tournament since Mental Misstep came out and I noticed the immediate impact of that card, it has made the deck much better.
@PanderAlexander
Well I'm surprised you topped in the upkeep facing lethal... When I first picked up the deck I was sooo impressed how it supports absolutely insane plays, and found these situations common, it's always in the 3rd card ; )
UBG landstill - in my testing (Bom5 version), I'm faster and if they tap out early they're dead, funny how Jace is the worst card in the deck, one the other hand Deeds resolved with 1 open mana is 60% GG; I don't play Bloodmoons but with needles its not fun against a skilled opponent
@TheProfessor
Nice idea but you have to make standardized decklist and sideboarding is always about feeling and players needs in the game I don't think it can be generalized; but some SB options list and basic use can be handy
@Di
Maverick can be somehow problematic especially with black splash for Confidants, builds may vary but I've met problems like Mother of Runes - Revoker, Extirpate, Enlightened tutor package with Needles and Serenity
@Raviv
you're right it's definitely bad for the deck itself to be popular, I don't think people will have Emrakul in SB but may include Gaea's Blessing as it actually does something, in fact I faced this situation last Friday in a weird-burn-mangara ZOO (!!) deck, I would have killed him all 3 games no matter what he had in hand but... its sad to have your 1st 1st turn kill on-play in a tournament G3.. I kept it just to show him how lame his deck is (I was out of prices anyway losing to BoM NO Show)
I was tapped out after intuition and casting Painter with that five mana, which also meant fresh cards to look at on top which was my goal since I still had three Grindstones in the library (he Vindicated one). I only had one turn to live so the play I did put me at the highest probability to win next turn out of all the lines of play, which unfortunately wasn't a lot since I had only a 20% chance to draw one of the remaining Grindstones with 40 cards left in the deck and being able to look at the top three. At that point I had ran him off three swords already on my Welders and a prior Painter. So after my untap with 5 mana available my goal was to top during upkeep and hope I had a Grindstone which I could cast and activate. You're right though, having that crucial card be there in time as the third topped card has happened many times times with this deck. For that tournament I originally took out all LEDs but added one last minute, which I forgot when I was going through all the possible lines of play when I topped during upkeep and missed that line of play. Who'd have known after my draw, I would top in to the one-of LED.
similar situation happened to me few weeks ago against merfolk, facing lethal I needed to draw a 2 card combination to win/lose in my last card - brainstorm and instead of LED and Grindstone I found Tomb and forgotten Ensnaring bridge =) ...well the deck is full of surprises
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