Yeah, it's called "winning" :P
Is Daze not getting any love? I thought (again, I don't play this deck much) that when you're playing Stifle and Wasteland, Daze was almost an auto-include?
-Matt
Well I did lose to merfolk the one time I played it, but I found boarding in deed + spot removal and boarding out counterspells and conditional disruption to be the best plan in testing. I found llawan to be too expensive and sometimes they have vials anyway.Originally Posted by rukcus
As for midrange, the ultimate trump is jace the mindsculptor. Basically what happens is you disrupt each other a bunch with discard/counterspells and kill each others creatures. Then you play jace and your nonblue midrange opponent doesn't, and you start using jace's abilities to get card/board advantage and you win. Since you are becoming a better midrange deck than them postboard, I think deed could also be ok. I played submerge in Providence but now I think it is too narrow and would be better devoted to more versatile removal. You really need to be able to kill a dark confidant on sight.
I suppose dedicated control would be landstill or something? There isn't really a pure control deck in legacy besides that monoblue deck, but the plan is the same there - board out creature removal for additional disruption. I was running the 4th thoughtseize, dispel and 2 spell pierces. Jace is also good there. You might have to watch out for sower or something, which is why thoughtseize is so good imo, so you know what to do with your brainstorms/ponders.
In general, consider boarding out mental misstep if it seems as if they have few targets for it. It's not an untouchable slot by any means.
re: Tarmogoyf: The deck centers around presenting a fast clock and disrupting your opponent. Goyf is the best creature in this role because you can play it early and it is almost always big enough to tangle with your opponents creatures, live, then start killing them while you disrupt them. The deck is not built to gain complete control of the game over a long period. With the exception of resolving a jace, your opponent will likely gain control back if they are a controlling deck, given enough time. That means you need to prevent them from getting that time. Vendilion clique is a great card and probably the closest thing but not a suitable replacement because
A) Sometimes you are stifling and wastelanding, so taking a nonland card can draw them into more land which is not what you want. Not that you have to, but then you've gotten almost no value off it and
B) It doesn't hit hard enough to end the game before they take control back
C) Against aggro it is clearly worse for very obvious reasons - it can't block anything without dying.
Dreadnaught is easier to kill than tarmogoyf, despite being a 12/12, and also requires you to use two cards, which this deck can't really afford to do since it has no way to recoup the cards if they deal with the dreadnaught. I generally need my stifles to stifle my opponents cards, and barring that to pitch to force of will.
However there are some drawbacks to tarmogoyf as you've stated:
1. It's green and that is the main thing that strains the mana of this deck.
2. Goblins is basically dead and that was the deck Tarmogoyf really hosed.
So I think a UB version might be worth trying out, but without the quick clock goyf can apply, the deck would have to look very different than TA.
I feel like this deck loses too many unessecary game 1's because of deed not being in the main. deed just deals with basically everything, and I always feel good casting it, I feel like it is never really a dead card for me.
If my main looks like this
4x Tombstalker
4x Goyf
2x V- Clique
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x MM
4x FoW
2x Smother
1x GFtT
4x Hymn
3x Ponder
what should come out for 2x Deeds?
thanks!
@positivenegative
I'd take out something like 1 Stifle, 1 Daze, 1 Clique, 1 Smother ... 2 of those 4 I guess. I'd probably add back the 4th Ponder too. I also play 2 Deed maindeck :)
I just dont get ppl who dont play jace in main deck.He is just so good...
How are your experiences lately playing versus BW stoneforge mystic decks?
I thought the matchup should be decent for us, but had a bad run lately. We should have good tools versus mystics with removal, stifle, counter and artifact removal like grip/maelstrom pulse. However they have such a high number of removal spells (especially post board), that i struggled to get there...
would be interested to hear your experiences and thougths!
I have found there threat Density is also light for them, so I board in 2 more removal spells, 2 grips, 2 deeds, and jaces and it seems to go well for me. I also board in kira for decks that have lots of spot removal. Really just try and save your countermagic for stoneforge and jace.
Save missteps only to counter 1cc removal.
Try to stifle ancentral vision.
2 thruns post board will be gamebreacking.
Anyway i find mystic+batterscull most broken mini-combo in legacy atm.And it shines in uw control-making it a deck without bad match ups.
Strange they banned it only in standart.
Does anybody still play the deck with dark confidants and terravores? What's the reason why people started to play this version of the deck?
It's so easy to disrupt Stoneforge Mystic -> Batterskull. Even the protected ones...
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Just a quick question : Is this a good choice if the meta (my predictions) is going to be infested by Zoo/Merfolk (Cheapest)?
To be honest, no. Those are perhaps the two worst matchups for this deck.
This deck does well in metagames consisting of mostly control and combo. You can certainly beat those two decks, but I would personally not want to face Lord of Atlantis and Price of Progress round after round.
i would have a quite noob-question^^, since i am new to any kind of blue deck, i would love if someone could me describe what stifle can be used against, just the most important plays with it (aside of stifling a fetch or an opposing wasteland^^)
and when is it the best to keep mana open for stifle?
PS: sorry, but told you its a quite noob-question^^(at least for blue decks, othewise i am not that much of a noob^^)
Mostly it should be used in the early game to disrupt an opponents manabase. Sets him back while we fill our graveyard for the demon. Therefore if you are on the play and the hand has i.e: Ponder, Stifle & a 2nd land drop, I would keep the mana open. In games which likely go longer and/or stifle has a very special application, you should save it. Special applicaionts from the top of my head
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Ancestral Vision
- Hive Mind
- Gatekeeper of Malakar
- Sower of Temptation
- maybe Forgemaster
thanks a lot..... only thing i dot really get is ancestral visions,.... and another question,... can stifle counter the stormability of tendrills and empty the warrens, so that the stell will only be cast once and not about 10 times?
Yes
Ive been fiddling with my team america list lately and I've come to love maelstrom pulse md. It's like deed but better when blind. You can drop your goyf/sylvan early and freely cast pulse later, with deed you have to play in a particular way to get the max effectiveness out of deed. I prefer deed in the board. I'm playing the 21 lands, no stifle, 2 jace, 2 snuff out, 1 gftt, 2 pulse version. I don't get why you guys are cutting snuff out. The card is really good as long as you don't draw multiples. As a 2 off, it has always performed well. Being free is really important.
The 2 jaces md IMO are my weakest slots. I'm constantly shifting between jaces and cliques as additional threats. The problem is that jace is 4cc and it's not always easy to get to 4 against a deck with wastelands. Jace is half the time force food but I think his raw power is worth it.
I find the 1cc of Dismember able to hit Dark Confidants, Tombstalkers, and even 4/4 Germ tokens more important than being free, imo. I've rarely ever drawn a Dismember and thought "man I wish this was Snuff Out" although I have most certainly been staring at my opponent's Confidant and frowning when I'm holding my useless Snuff Out.
Hi people,
Let's assume I want to play this deck (80% of the basic list) without a green or white splash.
The deck focuses more on getting your opponent in top-deck mode asap.
What all-round removal would you use for things that slip through counters and discard?
Recoil is the closest thing I could find (and fits the discard theme I use).
Of course we have the colorless things like ratched bomb, E.E, but it has to replace vindicate/pulse.
Do I miss something?
So if you're running less creatures, Black Sun's Zenith was good in testing. -1/-1 counters matter, and the shuffling effect is nice. That only deals with creatures, Ratchet Bomb might be your colorless Pernicious Deed replacement. The splash goes a long way, is it really necessary to forego it?
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