[Deck] The Rock

[coraz86]

@Jund fans; I've also been dying to put my Destructive Flows in a deck for a while. There was a pretty cool Jund madness deck running around that used them very well before the fall of magiccards.info or whatever that deck database was, but I can no longer find it.

[damionblackgear]

@Jund fans; I've also been dying to put my Destructive Flows in a deck for a while. There was a pretty cool Jund madness deck running around that used them very well before the fall of magiccards.info or whatever that deck database was, but I can no longer find it.

You should look-up Flow Rock. It's an old deck that used Destructive Flow in Rock styled shell.

-----

Matt, Bloodbraiding into Birds or Green Sun isn't all that great and is probably going to happen more than Bob Blind flips.

[sdematt]

Yeah, I guess there could be some pretty mediocre Bloodbraid flips. Awk!

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

I had a really poor showing today. Lots of hive mind combos and Bant aggro/control decks.

The Rock is not in a very good position at this moment.

Everyone is running scavenging ooze today.

[C Rayz Walz]

// Lands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
5 Swamp (1)
6 Forest (3)
2 polluted delta

Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Yavimaya Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen finks

Spells
3 Death Cloud
1 Damnation
4 Thoughtseize
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
3 smother
So if you have any questions on the list please let me know. I know this deck might now belong here but it is a rock list and I actually need some opinion. With the new garruk coming out and if to you don't know what he does he Planeswalker - Garruk
+1: Put a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.
-3: Draw cards equal to the greatest power among creatures you control.
-6: Put a 6/6 green Wurm creature token onto the battlefield for each land you control.

I am unsure if this garruk is better for me or if I should run it. The deck might need to change to fit him in but I feel he could be really powerful. Please give me your thoughts and if you feel this deck doesn't belong here then you can ask me to leave nicely. I have top 8 at some 40 plus tournament and winning a couple and doing well even in some bigger events. Card choices may seem odd but they work for the deck. Hope you guys can help me out and thanks.

[Dzra]

I'm not sure that either Garruk really fits into this deck or any Legacy deck for that matter. I don't think it does enough at 4 (or 5) cmc to really be considered. Either way, your biggest weakness would probably be combo as you don't seem to have much of a clock or many ways to disrupt them (outside of Death Clouding them I guess).

Hive Mind seems somewhat problematic. Keep shooting their lands and hope for a fast clock. ;/

I wouldn't think Bant would be terrible though, unless you mean NO which can also be a problem.

For people using equipment...

What do you consider the go-to equipment for Zoo? At first I was under the impression that there was almost never a time when I wouldn't want Batterskull; however, the ease with which Zoo kills Stoneforge makes me want to grab a lower costed equipment like SoFI or SoBM.

Of course, Zoo doesn't have a lot of trouble killing equipment between Pridemages and GSZ which would possibly lead me back to Batterskull since it can bounce. Perhaps the right call would be to board out the SFM package...? Alternatively, I could board in more equipment in the hopes of overwhelming their Pridemages.

[Droxis]

Hello, I have a few questions about The Rock. I play infrequently, but try to stick with a few specific decks. The Rock is the primary one and I've tried a few versions. Well, two: Diamonds without Zenith and No Diamonds with Zenith.

What would people say is the primary necessities for a Rock/Junk deck to function as a Rock deck?

4x Knight
4x Bob
4x Goyf
4x Seize
4x Hymn
4x Plowshares
3-4x Vindicate
3x Top
1-3x Utility Land (Maze, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Horizon Canopy, the pro color land I forget the name of)
2-4x Wasteland

And the rest is built together based on your own preferences and assertions on what will be the most successful in your meta? Would anyone say that having a certain card is essential outside of this core? Zenith shell? Stoneforge Mystic Shell? Mox Diamonds? Hierarchs?

I'm primarily asking in regards to Mox Diamonds. Mox Diamonds are rather expensive at the moment and I am not always able to borrow them. The zenith shell has performed well, though, and I've yet to try two stoneforge mystics with a jitte/sword. (With that said, what sword are people mostly considering? Feast and Famine? I'd figure Fire and Ice)

I mostly want to figure out what is solid enough to play for a while to get a better grasp on the deck and how it performs versus a lot of different match ups. More educational than victory oriented. This deck is so malleable that it feels... difficult to know when you are "doing it wrong," I suppose.

Just looking for some insights. Cheers. :)

[C Rayz Walz]

Having a planeswalker after you cloud the board is always gg, and let me tell you that clouding the board isn't very hard to do. untaping lands for cloud and making creatures is great but I like the idea of plus 1 making a dude and drawing cards as well.

The only match up where I feel is a total loss is dredge. I usually board in some more discard and threats to speed up the clock and by no means is combo easy but not unwinnable. Hive mind- sure it is tough but with the right discard spell you can get there.

Bant is a pretty good match up for me. I am 5-1-1 vs bant decks.

My board changes although the time so any more imput would be great. Thank you Dzra for your imput.
Any questions I would be happy to explain.

[ForlornEgoist]

Post

One of the reasons I am fond of Rock is that it has several viable variants that you can take the deck in all of which have varying degrees of success that ultimately do not change the deck or ruin the integrity. When you look at decks such as Gobs/Merfolk the only notable change for Gobs is splash color and Merfolks running Standstill over counters/bounce. Combo varies slightly in Wish boards or chosen wincon but deck integrity remains consistent. I can continue naming decks but you catch the argument I'm making.

Honestly I would say that you've outlined the skeleton quite nicely and from there you just need to consider personal preference as well as the current state of your meta. My meta has a variety of aggro with several dedicated control/combo (at least 2 of each) so from this I decided that running Moxes/GSZ was optimal as it provided extra tempo as well as access to tutors for more creature threats or Qasali MD/Teeg SB. If your meta had a greater focus on control than aggro then Moxes would be unnecessary IMO as the game most likely will be dragged to mid-late range which do not necessitate the speed/fixing given to us by Moxes.

The SFM shell is another viable option you can take this deck although it does require a slightly higher creature density and because of the nature of the Shell is quite greedy with deck slots thus leaving you less flex slots to run cards such as EE/Deed/Elspeth. In general I believe you can argue that for our deck:
3 SFM
2-3 Equip
I do believe that 3 SFM's is necessary although many are comfortable to sit her at 2. I doubt that our deck really needs that 3rd equipment as I would rather run an extra creature than an extra equip considering the amount of CA/fixing/fetches our deck runs to draw into what we need. I know Batterskull has pretty much become the new standard for SFM although I've really only had successful testing with Batterskull thus far in DS/Deadguy so I can't offer opinions as to how it functions in this deck. The other popular choice tends to be Jitte for the obvious reasons of it making any creature a threat.
If you were to decided between Hierarchs and BoP I would say BoP is more optimal for the SFM package. Albeit Hierarch gives you Exalted but running equipment means your creatures will already be in a superior position so optimizing your equipments with "unblockables," is preferrable.

Honestly your assessment of how malleable the deck is and how there isn't a "wrong," way to build/play the deck is accurate. Fortunately for us there isn't an "optimal," list which unlike other decks provides us more more leniency for personal interpretation. As I've said I'm running Moxes/GSZ and it is performing quite well for me whereas I'm sure another player can provide results of how amazing their Moxless/SFM build is performing. Ultimately you just need to look at your meta and decide which variant makes you most happy to play.

Forlorn Egoist

[KobeBryan]

Decklist

Here's the deck that I piloted to a 2-4 finish yesterday. 61 card list

Lands (23)
1x swamp
1x plain
1x forest
3x bayou
1x scrubland
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
1x volrath's stronghold
1x bojuka bog
4x verdant catacombs
3x marsh flats
3x wastelands
1x dryad arbor

sorcery (15)
1x life from the loam
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
3x green sun zenith
2x maelstrom pulse
1x vindicate

instants (4)
4x swords to plowshares

Artifacts (6)
3x mox diamond
3x sensei's diving top

Creatures (13)
4x dark confidant
4x knight of the reliquary
3x tarmogoyf
1x gaddock teeg
1x qasali pridemage

sideboard
1x ethersworn canonist
1x qasali pridemage
2x pithing needle
1x phyrexian metamorph
1x thrun the last troll
2x enlightened tutor
1x engineered explosives
2x pernicious deed
3x extirpate
1x null rod


What i learned yesterday was that I needed one more engineered explosives. These were key in a lot of matchups with noble heirach, stoneforge mystics, zoo based decks, bant decks. The pernicious deeds was 1 turn too slow most of the time.

I did not use pithing needle once the whole day. Its a rather pointless card. Ethersworn canonist won me 2 games against ANT. Very useful card. The opponent was stupid for not packing in natures claim. Krosan grip was sorely missed.

My new board will be this

1x phyrexian metamorph
3x krosan grip
3x extirpate
1x ethersworn cannonist
2x enlightened tutor
2x pernicious deed
2x engineered explosives
1x null rod

I am thinking I will take out another goyf in the main deck to run 1 of scavenging ooze. This card is very useful and gets big pretty fast.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

[The Duressed]

I've been working with a list that is pretty similar to yours:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
3 Duress
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Nihil Spellbomb
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Having played the Green Sun version a pretty fair amount, I don't think I would be too offended to see a fellow Junk player drop to 2 Tarmogoyf. When you're casting Green Sun, all you want to be getting is your toolbox creatures or more Knights of the Reliquary. The plan with that card in this deck has never really been to get all my Tarmogoyfs onto the battlefield ASAP.

I wonder, for those of you who are still playing the Stoneforge Mystic package, what you think of it with more experience? For me, even in a meta with a pretty reasonable amount of aggro decks, Stoneforge didn't really do enough. Some decks just don't care, and some can remove your Mystic or Germ Token before they're too threatening. The point is that it seems to be too slow for my taste. The other problem I've been having with the idea of running Stoneforge Mystic in my build is that it just doesn't seem to add enough to the deck. With Green Sun's Zenith, you get to play maindeck Qasali Pridemage and even Gaddock Teeg (Teeg in the MD has been huge, in my experience). To me, Stoneforge just doesn't add enough to the deck to actually warrant taking up 5+ slots.

One last note: Recently, Vindicate has been much better for me than Maelstrom Pulse. The ability to destroy lands has been extremely important.

If you do end up testing Scavenging Ooze, please let us know where you like it and where you don't.

[sdematt]

I have a heavy week of tests, but I'll reply eventually :P

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

I have a heavy week of tests, but I'll reply eventually :P

-Matt

Please do. Scavenging Ooze seems like a very good card to use.

[sdematt]

In short: Many of the games I'm playing lead to attrition battles. Card values is more important than ever now that the format has slowed down. Batterskull is so good because of the insane value it has. It's a creature than can't die. That's pretty awesome. So is stuff like Vengevine, Extirpate, Thrunn, Life from the Loam, Crucible, etc. all have massive value. But, so does Jace.

The main problem is the discard suite is counteracted by Ancestral Vision/Standstill; small creatures decks die to BUGStill; U/W Landstill isn't the same beast as U/W Stoneforge. The main problem is, you can't build a deck (as far as I know) that beats all of those flavours of Landstill consistently. BUGstill is the most powerful but inconsistent, whereas U/W Stoneforge will get you eventually, and has a super steady manabase and has actual win condition beyond Jace.

Right now, mid-range is caught with two feet on an ever widening fault line. Midrange and Aggro Control are getting bested by dedicated control and dedicated super aggro (Mono R Burn, Zoo, etc,). So, the question is, how do we either win the short battles, the attrition war, or both?

So, the real question becomes: Is our own SFM good enough? Is Vindicate good enough? Right now, I'm not trying Mystic, as everyone is going to be packing equipment removal. Right now, I'm trying Crucible, Loam, and Thrunns in the main. We'll see how it ends up going. Perhaps Gigapede will be worthy, but who knows?

I still think GSZ is an awesome card at the moment, as it has HUGE value. SFM provides great advantage over creature based decks, but do you really want to sit in a SFM war, especially when you've got 2-3 and they have 4? Personally, in this deck, I don't want to spend two turns derdling around and waiting for Mystic to bite the dust. I'd rather run out Thrun, Crucible, Teeg, or something. Again, we'll see, more testing is needed.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Now I have time to work on this deck a bit.

Alright, anyway, Stoneforge Landstill, I'm sure, is the best build, because it doesn't just rely on Factories and Jace, it also has an incredible clock.

Right now, I'm trying this list:

24 Lands

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun
1 Qasali Pridemage

1 Crucible
1 Loam (to fight their LD, plus it can mill)

4 Vindicate (more Jace/artifacts that need killin' in this meta)
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
2 GSZ
3 Top

Now, for the board, I was thinking this:

1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tariff

Why? Well, Extirpate is so good against Loam and if you discard their Jace, so I have to have it, plus it hurts Inuition based strategies.

Crypt serves double duty against Reanimator shenanigans, as well as Welder/Knight decks.

Deed is our main go-to against Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins, should they appear. It's slow, but we need cards that gain value, and Deed's it. Also good against Maverick, which is a force to be reckoned with. Plus, helps clear away Bant's/RUG's creatures so they can't NO you to death.

Thrun is against the Landstill/removal heavy matchups like Team America, and for 43 Lands (no Maze for you!)

Teeg comes in against Dredge, Landstill, Natural Order, etc. I will say, he does die quickly, so it's really a flex slot at the moment. But, they have to get removal and not use it on our other threats first, so for now, it's alright. Basically, I want this as a "Fuck you, Jace!" spot, but serving double duty against other cards ain't bad either. No Wrath until you Path, good sir.

With all the NO RUG running around, I figured Tariff was a good idea against a counter-light deck. Basically, I'm thinking you bring in Deeds and Tariffs here, and try to blow out their few creatures, then lay on the Tariff if they land the Natural Order. T

The Tariff and Teeg slots are the most controversial to me. They could be Null Rods, Paths (which isn't good against Landstill, believe me. Them getting ahead is the absolute worst), or other random hate. Not sure about these slots.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

in the place of tormods crypt you could also play this new creature from commander, sadly i do not remember how it is called, but i know at least it is an ooze-creature, and the ability is something like this if i remember right:

manacost of ooze = 1G

G: remove card from a graveyard, if it was a creature card put a +1/+1 counter on ooze

it serves allmost the same purposes as tormod's crypt and is a beater in addiction, should be better against knight decks, worse against reanimator decks, and probably about the same against dredge (even thought it could be a bit to slow)

an extra plus on this creature is that it is searchable with GSZ as well

otherwise i have to say that your sideboard looks allmost the same as the one i had in mind, though my MD lookes a bit different since i am trying something new right now (one-off glissa with engineered explosives, and jitte, and 3 GSZ)

[sdematt]

Scavenging Ooze is what you're looking for. I totally forgot about him. I'll add him in :P

-Matt

[smurphy]

This may sound completely stupid but was thinking today to help early game against zoo, gobs, and 'folk maybe misstep in the board someplace. It stops Vial shenanigans before they start and hits those decks early especially on the play where our first turn discard is less powerful. Has anyone tried this? I'm sure someone has and if so how was it?

[ForlornEgoist]

This may sound completely stupid but was thinking today to help early game against zoo, gobs, and 'folk maybe misstep in the board someplace. It stops Vial shenanigans before they start and hits those decks early especially on the play where our first turn discard is less powerful. Has anyone tried this? I'm sure someone has and if so how was it?

I'm actually annoyed by the tribal MU (Despite Deed/Eplague/GftT in SB) and am considering dropping Hymn for it. Yes, 2-for-1 is always amazing but in my meta I often encounter MU's where it becomes irrelevant if I can't do it initially. MU such as Enchantress/Tribal/Combo. Not to mention that because I'm running GSZ and MD Gx creatures fixing for BB has sometimes come back to bit me. I had considered doing it in the TS spot but currently I consider TS very reasonable (not to mention it hurts less on a Misdirection which several players have started doing against me x.x').

I'll post results from my testing when I can but currently Dragon Stompy is my favorite child right now.

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

Woah, don't abandon your children.

I've got some testing that I need all of you to participate in, if you can help, for the good of the deck at the moment. Who's in?

-Matt