I don't think Team America is viable without Goyf, if you really want to go UB you should do a search for this deck called Tombstone (I think? Can't remember what it was called). The deck runs Tombstalker, Stifle-Dreadnought and Vision charm with a bunch of discard/counters + wasteland. Vision charm cheat Dreadnought into play and also protects dreadnought. You can also use it to mill yourself and play a fat Stalker. I don't think it's that great but if you can't afford to splash green, it should be an ok temporary deck.
On Snuff out VS dismember, I find that Snuff out is really good against my bad MUs like Fish and Zoo while dismember is better against my fair-good MUs like Junk and the BUG Mirror. Therefore, I like Snuff out slightly more to balance out the deck. Being able to Brainstorm/Ponder into the T1 Snuff out has been a very very strong play for me.
This is probably the closest thing to what your looking for: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...k-DreadStalkerHi people,
Let's assume I want to play this deck (80% of the basic list) without a green or white splash.
The deck focuses more on getting your opponent in top-deck mode asap.
What all-round removal would you use for things that slip through counters and discard?
Recoil is the closest thing I could find (and fits the discard theme I use).
Of course we have the colorless things like ratched bomb, E.E, but it has to replace vindicate/pulse.
Do I miss something?
Metalworker has had some recent success with this deck and I currently play variations of the deck as well. EE is pretty much the best sweeper available without access to green unfortunately, although phyrexian metamorph can be tech for many of the problems that slip through permission/disruption. Personally I love the way the deck plays with the "oops I win" factor of stiflenought, although maverick is a real bitch to play against and bant can also be rough. Overall it seems TA is a more balanced deck but I prefer the U/B shell and the rogue nature of this deck.
Hi all
First of all: Please dont blame me for my bad english ;)
I'd love to go to my first legacy tournament. Because I already own lots of the more expensive cards for TA due to many years of playing vintage, I decided to run a Team America deck. I have already read articles and threads about the format and the different decks.
This is the list, that I've put together:
Maindeck:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Go for the Throat
2 Smother
2 Engineered Explosives
A few thoughts:
-Do you think it would be reasonable to cut the Stifles for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek?
-Are 3 Jace too many? Since I own 3 of them, I just threw them into the deck.
As for the sideboard:
I really have absolutely no idea what metagame to expect. So I wanted to create a SB, which has cards to board in against the most commun decks and the problematic matchups.
Here's my (first) SB prototype:
3 Cephalid Empress (vs. Merfolk)
3 Spell Pierce (vs. Standstill / Control and Combo)
2 Pernicious Deed (vs. Dredge and Aggrodecks: Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Affinity....)
2 Tormods Crypt (vs.Dredge and Reanimator)
3 Consuming Vapors (vs. fatties like Emrakul or Progenitus)
2 Krosan Grip (vs. Affinity, MUD and Countertop)
I'd love to hear your thoughts to the maindeck as well as the sideboard. I'am also very interested which cards you side out against the certain matchups.
Thanks in advance and best regards
I found the following SB cards to be an absolute house against Landstill/slow control:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Life from the Loam
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Extirpate
I think Consuming Vapors is more than a tad too slow against NO/SnT lists. If it hits, it hits hard, but you're probably dead before it can. Don't bother boarding in Crypts for Dredge and Reanimator. If you run it (and I'd definitely recommend you do), board in Extirpate and counter whatever they're trying to do. You're Team America, you can pull that off. The most effective play a Dredge player can make is to opt to draw rather than play, and discard a dredger in his or her very first discard step. With Mental Misstep, Daze and Force, you'll just crush his spell-based attempts at filling his graveyard.
I'd strongly recommend playing a single Darkblast main, and to never board it out. Stifle is awesome - I still play a full playset, and no Jaces.
Thanks for your replies.
I agree with Ivanpei that goyf has a very important role in this deck, and can't be replaced/not played.
And the green splash enables a lot of good (SB) cards.
I will test it with and without splash to confirm.
It's too bad I traded away my noughts, but I had my fun with them since the errata some years ago :)
Would be fun though to get those memories back on the table at the next GP here :)
Why is your strategy versus reanimator?
In G1 I am not sure if its best to use MM versus their careful study/entomb or if I should totally focus on the reanimate spells (Problem is there are so many)...
In G2 I have access to 3 Extirpate and 1 Nihil Spellbomb, so if hate is available it is clear to let entomb/careful study resolve....
Thoughts, Experiences?
I like using MM on their careful study/entombs if you don't know which they have multiples of. Especially careful study since it could let them draw into the other part they need. If you play thoughtseize it's much better because you can see what they're missing. Postboard it depends. I still like countering careful study for the reasons stated before. It's embarrassing if they get a couple guys in the yard and thoughtseize your extirpate and reanimate their other creature.
It is possible to lose to reanimator with this deck?
It's possible if your opponent gets the nut draw into T2 Inkwell.
I have found that boarding in Llawan can be very good as all of there threats tend to be blue except Iona and sometime Terrastadon. Jace can hopefully bounce Iona if need be, since they are forced to name black with her.
What makes you so confident to crush reanimator? They are fast and have a lot of protection. Our primary disruption piece hymn looses value.Originally Posted by RexFTW
Thanks Worm1605: Jace is of course a good answer, but I did not think about llawan. Problem is they are 4 drops and you need something to make the game last that long so not sure if its correct bringing in both.
Since I have also 4 Gy hate spots, the question is what to bring out. I go for hymn, but I also think stifle looses value? How is your boarding strategy vs. reanimator?
I only board in two Llawan if they show me Gin and Inwell. It's also probable they have Sphinx somewhere in the 75 too. What I board out usually depends on if I'm on the draw or not. My current removal suite is 2x GftT & 2x Pulse.
Draw: -4 Hymn, -1 Ponder, -1 Daze, -2 Pulse.
+2 Crypt, +1 Nihil Spellbomb (mise!), +2 Spell Peirce, +2 Llawan.
I think the hymns are to slow, and like you said, are sometimes bad against them. Ponder is at it's best when it sets up a T2 Hymn. Daze is to slow on the draw. Pulse is to slow in general, they don't play Jace, and are likely to counter it.
Play: -2 Hymn, -2 Pulse, -1 Bob/Stalker, -1 Wasteland,
+ Everything above.
Here it's all about counter magic. Slip through a Threat and counter all of there spells. Hymn sometimes gets lucky and discards there gas. Wasteland is really because they play so many basics that after game one if you get them with it, the opponent will often play around it. Sometimes I just bring in one Llawan game three, if I showed it to them game two.
I'm currently trying out a janky Bob/Clique/Jace maindeck verusion with no stifle, because I want to run Bob. If I was playing Stalker/Stifle version I would still probably board some of them out, as you are unlikely to screw them and they can run with one mana source.
I played Bob, Clique, Jace and GftT lately instead of goofy and stalker and it was very very bad. I thougthseized, hymed, play Clique and got raced by zoo and affinity.
That's not what you want.
It's ok if your meta is pure Control and combo but it sucks hard versus random aggro. I crushed control and combo with the trinity on the Board but Zoo drops a lavamancer and all your creatures are done. You may try deed instead of the stifle but don't dare to cut your fatty beater :D
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Well without Goyf that makes sense. If you drop Goyf there is no reason to play Green and have risky mana base.
Recently I have been testing this in my group, with great success:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendlion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Daze
2 Smother
2 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
SB:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
Preordain might as well be another Bayou, but I only own one, and with so many cantrips, I don't think 19 lands has been a problem for me. I often only have two in play, but if it's Underground Sea x2 or Underground Sea and Bayou I can cast most things in the deck. I used to run a single basic Island but dropped it after getting mana flooded for the eighth or ninth time that night, and I haven't really missed it. Granted, Blood Moon is still GG, but that's the case even with the Island in the deck.
Smother > GftT, because people actually play Phyrexian Dreadnought and Painter's Servant in Sweden, and Smother deals with them, Bob, and most other things bar Tombstalker (who isn't all that common). In the end, the removal suite is of course a metagame call, and with the sheer diversity of removals available to us, it is just a question of what you need dead.
The whole set-up with 9 threats, 9 cantrips has worked very well for me, and I can't really see myself shelling out for Jaces and Bobs to play them in this deck any time soon.
I am a huge fan of Team America and I have been playing variations of the deck for close to a year with varying degrees of success. Recently TA dropped from DTB to Established and I am curious as to your take on why this happened.
I consider many of you here to be veteran TA/tempo players so I would like to hear insight as to why and what may be done to change this. Is it because of a general move in legacy towards aggro based strategy? Also does TA need to reevaluate some card choices previously deemed too risky or unnecessary? In particular I would like to see TA reevalute some of its core components and possibly see a revision in order to return to tier 1 status.
In particular I would be interested in some discussion (and actual recent experience if possible) with 2-3 Tombstalkers + full set of Dark Confidants in the same deck. Obviously the power of each individual card is proven and well known but so far most people have shy'd away from the risk of combining both in the same deck.
So, would a move away from other life taxing cards be enough to offset the risk of running these two together? i.e. Snuff Out, Thoughtseize, Jace due to cmc 4, etc.
For example, Snuff Out is undenyably great but paying the alternate cost of 2 Snuff Outs is equivalent to flipping a Tombstalker with bob. Thoughtseize (if you play them) could be replaced with Inquisition of Kozilek and Sylvan Library with Loam (just thinking out loud).
For my part I have currently been testing TA with 4 goyfs, 4 Dark Confidants and 3 Tombstalkers and so far it feels very powerful, yet I am not a mathematician so some figures showing the odds of flipping a stalker with bob would be nice to know (taking into account 7-8 cantrips if possible).
For my own experiences so far I can say that when bob sticks around I almost always win and my opponents always consider him a must answer threat so often times he eats removal that would of been aimed at my stalker/goyf. Bob + cantrips is just insane and he makes throwing out FoWs feel almost carefree as his CA replentishes your hand so quickly.
I think what I am trying to say is that it seems that bobs inclusion has increased the threat density of the deck by playing another 2 drop of equal power to goyf/stalker (not necessarily a threat to life total but you get the idea).
Lastly Ive noticed that more and more Eva Green players feel that the risk is warranted in exchange for the combined power the combination of these cards can bring to the table and they dont even have the luxury of 8 cantrips to set themselves up.
I am not the most articulate person so I will stop now, but please I am eager to hear your thoughts as it seems to me that TA needs to adapt to stay competitive with the latest changes in legacy.
Regarding the 'fall from grace', there are several reasons. I think it has a lot to do with players just jumping on 'trendy' decks and then expecting to duplicate previous results. Tempo-style decks, perhaps moreso than other archetypes, require a lot of skill and familiarity to do well with them. You dont really have any huge bomb cards that just win on their own; every turn counts and the 'correct' hand to keep or card to play is very matchup dependent. Compared to a relatively 'forgiving' deck like Merfolk or Bant, Team America is much harder to just pick up and play. So I think a lot of the band-wagoners may have just lost interest.
A second reason may be because I think the Dark Confidant is inferior than the Tombstalker version against an aggro field. Bob just doesn't seem quite as ridiculous in Legacy as he is in Vintage -- people actually play removal and creatures.
The final reason is that combo decks, at least in the US, are not as commonly played anymore. These were typically the best/easiest matchups for Team America.
With that said, I still have faith in the deck and think with some tweaks it can do just fine against the new metagame, with NO Rug, Merfolk, and UW Mystic being the decks to beat.
I posted this list in the UWb Esper Blade thread, but feel like it may be more appropriate here:
'Final Fantasy' (via FFVI Espers) by me:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tombstalker
2 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
[could also be -2 stp +2 vindicate/oblivion ring]
My current sideboard for the deck:
3 thoughtseize
2 perish
2 engineered explosive
2 energy flux
2 jace, TMS
2 oblivion ring/stp if o ring in main
1 relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
Basically just smashing SFM into Team America, which improves the aggro matchup quite well. TA has little to no problems against most forms of control or combo. You of course fold to a resolved Blood Moon or similar, but that is the price you pay for playing a three color tempo deck. Stifle and Thoughtseize (in the SB) is a house against other SFM decks, and just good in general right now. Perish also deals with Bant, Maverick, and NO-RUG, which were pretty difficult for the UW Stoneforge decks to deal with.
I know the list looks clunky at first glance, and the absence of Goyf may seem like heresy. But SFM really shores up matchups that were previously difficult for TA and I would urge all of you TA players to give it a try. No green means no more Goyf, Sylvan Library, Pernicious Deed, or Krosan Grip, but white can fulfill many of those card's duties. StP is just the best removal as well. Batterskull is also incredibly useful in the late game [where classic TA used to falter some], being able to replay it again and again or tossing it onto a Tombstalker for a 9/9 flying vigilant lifelinker is just nuts. A 3/4 or 4/5 for 2 just isn't as impressive as it used to be, and the lifelink is incredibly relevant in the difficult matchups like Burn and Merfolk.
Heresy!
The above deck does look pretty sweet, and I've wanted to be able to play STP many a time.
As for the fall of TA, it's a cyclical thing, the deck could easily emerge as a DTB again. There's two main reasons it's worse and they both stem from mental misstep.
Like wcm8 said, combo in general has gotten worse which eliminates one of TA's best matchups. Goblins is also nearly dead which was another good matchup, at least for the classic version of the list. Without these two decks to prey on, the field in general is not as friendly matchup-wise. Stoneforge control and various midrange decks are much closer matchups and have a lot of power so the incentive to play TA over these isn't as strong. The answer to these problems involves evolving the deck, but I think it's jace and not stoneforge that's the answer. In midrange type battles against "fair" decks, jace is just the trump to end all trumps.
Anyone have any ideas besides jace on how to improve the stoneforge control or landstill matchups?
Also, I picked it up, got the cards I was missing and started playtesting it more seriously. So naturally, it has fallen from grace. It's really uncanny how I manage to always pick the wrong deck for my local metagame, and it's happened on several occasions - I pick up Canadian Thresh -> people start playing Loam, I start playing Merfolk -> people sleeve up Zoo, I finally get the cards I need for TES -> WotC prints Mental Misstep in the very next released set.
Jokes aside, I think you are right, and I still see a lot of potential in TA. The sheer power of cards like Tombstalker/Bob, Hymn, Force of Will, Brainstorm etc. makes it one of those decks that can compete in a field of mediocre matchups if you are a competent enough pilot.
wcm8: Nice list and a kickass name too! I hadn't really considered something like that but it seems promising. Not sure if its really my style but splashing white over green definitely has merit vs. some of TAs bad matchups like Landstill due to plowing their factories and vialing in batterskulls :) nice.
RE: LandstillAnyone have any ideas besides jace on how to improve the stoneforge control or landstill matchups?
Why not look at squeezing some manlands in? What Im suggesting is something like a 3/2 or 3/3 split of Wasteland and Mishra's Factory along with Life from the Loam mainboard. TA has the ability to play control, although admittedly not as well as Landstill does but manlands and Loam would both go a long way to help with Standstill, Jace and Deed which are the main problems from what Ive seen. Thoughts?
When you start stretching the deck in too many directions, I feel like you get a weaker version of what you are borrowing the ideas from. Have you seen the UBG 'Deedstill' lists? I think this is where you should start if you want to play a more controlling version of TA, and some of those lists have sideboarded Goyf/Bobs to transition into aggro-control postboard. The idea of TA is to use tempo cards like Stifle and Daze to your advantage, and these cards aren't quite as fantastic in a dedicated control list.
Also, regarding my new Esper list, I think the maindeck is very close to ideal, though I suppose you could find some way to squeeze a few more lands and 2-3 Jace in the maindeck. But I think in a lot of matchups Jace is just not ideal, and going full-on tempo is better.
The sideboard could certainly use some work, and I think Spell Pierce may need to find its way in there. But it's a start and would need to be adjusted for your expected meta.
A slightly nice side-effect of playing SFM is that in the postboard games, your opponent needs to decide whether or not to board in hate for the Mystic/Batterskull, which is completely worthless against the rest of your deck. Before, with Goyf and Stalker, a turn 1 Relic was REALLY irritating to play against -- having two divergent threats makes it difficult for an opponent to SB against you effectively outside of just overloading on creature removal (but hey, you should be trying to use Hymn/Thoughtseize and your counterspells to ensure your threat's safety.) Just watch out for Blood Moon/Back to Basics -- we can still utilize a pre-emptive Seal of Cleansing, or just hope for a timely Spell Pierce/Daze/FoW.
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