I don't think Mogg Fanatic is good enough. Lightning Bolt is probably better because it has a higher probability of killing something in the first few turns and isn't so bad late in the game, since you can use it to finish off an opponent. Tutoring for Fanatic with Matron is something you probably won't be doing anyway, and the fact that you can't nab Lightning Bolt off Ringleader isn't such a tragedy, because getting a Mogg Fanatic off one isn't exactly brilliant either.
One downside of Tarfire is that it pumps Goyf, which might be relevant.
I've been thinking about Tarfire recently and I think it's actually quite a bit better in the current metagame. The number of creatures it kills with no setup is much bigger than I imagined. Pretty much anything that isn't Goyf or Knight dies to him. And with a little help from Wasteland, Tarfire also kills Loam Lion/Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl. I think it could be a great addition to our removal package. It's a Goblin and more reach. It helps Goblin Lackey connect more often on turn 2. Could be worth testing again.
This is absolutely wrong. If I'm playing Dredge and my opponent mulls to 5 for a first turn Leyline I do a mental fist pump. Especially G3 if they know you have it it will be chain of vapored or natures claimed. The best plan vs Dredge I think would be misstep actually. Misstep their outlet waste their land goes a long way. Surgical extraction can also be good with the plus side of not being dead vs other decks. I don't run any grave hate though and just pray. In a big tourney I would pack extractions I think.Originally Posted by GoboLord
I tested out mox + instigator and sometimes it was just insane and other times I wanted to cry when I ripped a mox off the top. I want to try out spirit guides because being able to spirit guide into pyroblast from the board feels dirty. Plus he's a body so there's always that. Too bad there's no goblin spirit guide. I agree about sharpshooter being pretty sex right now. I've tried pairing him with basilisk collar but that proved to be too mana intensive.
One last note is that ancient grudge is infinitely better than k grip. There's a reason grudge is a vintage staple, its so powerful. K grip was really only better when countertop was big. Countermagic does not interact favorably with grudge especially when a lot of mystic decks are packing a pair of spell snares and force as their only counters to it. Plus in any other matchup grudge can generate 2 for 1s and hit a turn earlier. The only currently played deck where I would prefer grip is BUG still to hit their deeds (junk too I guess).
Hey guys,
since it seems we're all varying the MD removals in current changing meta, I made a list with pros and cons again that came to my mind:
Fanatic:
pro-Goblin (synergy with Ringleader, Lackey...), Creature (can hit and run, vialed in), effect can only be stifled-usually doesn't get countered at all, synergy with sharpshooter, great for fighting Batterscull, jitte and war monk
con-shoots only 1 dmg, bad topdeck in lategame
Tarfire:
pro-Goblin (synergy with Matron and rest..), kills almost everything turn 2 (even on the draw)
con-Tribal increases goyf, just hits once
Bolt:
pro-3 for 1, also good for lategame direct damage
con-no goblin, probably the best countertarget of all
Before maindecking bolt I would rather consider pyrokinesis as an option, cause it's even amazing turn 2 vs. affinity!
So far I'd go with a similar list like bakofried, except for -1 Fanatic, +1 Tinkerer.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Warchiefs, I come to you now after participating in a small local tournament and ended 1st of 20.
Match Overview: 7-2
Round 1: Hypergenesis (2-0)
Round 2: Landstill (2-0)
Round 3: RU Landstill (1-2)
Round 4: Merfolk (2-0)
Round 5: Enchantress (0-2)
Quarter Finals: Merfolk (2-0)
Semi Finals: Enchantress (2-0)
Finals: BUG Landstill (2-1)
I used the following list:
Main Deck
4x Aether Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Piledriver
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Tin Street Hooligan
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x Chrome Mox
Lands
4x Wasteland
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Taiga
2x Badlands
6x Mountains
Sideboard
2x Perish
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Krosan Grip
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
Round 1 :: Wilkin with Hypergenesis 2-0
Game 1: I won the die roll and decided to go first only to see double Chancellor of the Tangle being revealed for the extra green mana he'd receive on his turn. At the time, I had no idea what deck he was playing so I shrugged it off. On his turn, he plays Violent Outburst with the GG along with the land he drops and cascades into Hypergensis. This allows him to drop 2x Chancellor of the Tangle, 1x Chancellor of the Annex, and Elvish Spirit Guide onto the field (WTF?) At this point though, I was not fully in panic mode as I had 3 Ringleaders and 1 Stingscourger in hand. I ended up with an additional 7-8 goblins in hand from the chain of Ringleaders and Stingscourged the Annex back to his hand. Eventually, I overcamehis beefy Chancellors with piledrivers, warchiefs, instigators well really, the whole horde.
Game 2: Early Instigator convinces Wilkin to concede, as he was also unable to draw the pieces he needed to go off.
Round 2 :: Omar with UWG Landstill 2-0
Game 1: Lackey was forced on turn 1 but a resolved Aether vial on turn 2 sticks and pumps out all the goblins I needed to floor Omar. His Mishra's factory was Wasted to clear the way for my little green men.
Game 2: Started and ended much like the first
I love playing against slow Blue Decks. Ironic since I lost my next match.
Round 3 :: Andrew with RU Landstill 1-2
Game 1: I won the die roll and as a result - Mountain, Chrome Mox (removing Stingscourger) - Instigator. He didn't have any answers and quickly lose to an army raised instigated by well.. the instigator.
Game 2: Started much the same as Game 1 except my instigator resolved on turn 2 (in the absence of the Mox) and eventually brought in friends. However, a timely Firespout cleared the board. He later drops 2 Vedalken Shackles and a beefy Epochrasite returns which ends up locking me out.
Game 3: I saw 2 Firespouts and 3 Fire/Ice. Eventually, Mishra's Factories, Epochrasites, and a lone Vedalken Shackles finish me off.
T'was a very rough matchup. Thinking if I hadn't overextended by laying down all the Goblins it may have turned out differently for me.
Round 4 :: Steve with Merfolk 2-0
Always sucks to face a friend halfway through a tournament where wins matter as it may have been too early to go for a draw.
Game 1: We both dropped turn 1 Aether Vials. Over on his fence, he had a Silvergill, Lord of Atlantis, and a freshly vialed in Coralhelm Commander which he spent mana on his turn to level up to Level 4. He attacks with Silvergill and the Lord. I had a piledriver in play and vialed in a Stingscourger to bounce the Commander. Silvergill and Lord of Atlantis were blocked by Piledriver and Stingscourger. We exchange creatures back and forth. Eventually, he had an Aether Vial, unequipped Jitte, and Kira. I cast Tin Street to destroy the Jitte, it was Forced. I cast a second which he had no answers for. Eventually, without the Jitte and running out of gas, I was able to overrun him easily.
Game 2: He drops a turn 1 Vial. On my turn, I get to resolve a Lackey. He casts a Cursecatcher and puts his Vial to 1 counter. I remove a Piledriver and cast Pyrokinesis to blast the Cursecatcher away, leaving 2 mana open in case of Daze. The field is cleared, my Lackey connects and brings friends. It's all downhill for him from there.
Round 5 :: Lucas with Enchantress 0-2
I got to play Lucas before and found him to be a great guy I've had the pleasure of playing with. Always a tough match up for Goblins (I own the all time record 2-1 against his Enchantress).
Game 1: I was slowed from the get go where my Lackey was met with Elephant Grass. Eventually, his early Solitary Confinement and being able to maintain it won him the game.
Game 2: Similar to Game 1, I had a quick start but Solitary Confinement and a Sterling Grove ruined my battle plans. Even a turn 2 Chalice of Void couldn't slow him down enough. Eventually, after laying down a few Enchantress Presence, he cast his 1cc enchantments only to draw cards even if they were countered. I was praying that he'd sac his Sterling Grove to search for Moat just so I can Krosan Grip his Confinement. He had such a draw engine going, he eventually drew the Moat and there was nothing I could've done.
Top 8
Even though I was 3-2, I managed to make top 8 due to awesome tiebreakers.
Quarter Finals :: Deo with Merfolk 2-0
Games 1 and 2 greatly convinced me that Goblins still have the upper hand against mono U Merfolk by far. Force of Will to counter my early Lackey, Instigator, or Piledriver really hurts them as they'll be either pitching Lords or other counters. Yes, they can side out FoWs but what's going to stop my barrage of Instigators, Lackeys, Vials, and Piledrivers?
Semi Finals :: Lucas with Enchantress 2-0
I was given the chance of redemption against a terrible matchup. Plan was to side in 3 Krosan Grip 3 Chalice of the Void and side out 2 Tin Street Hooligan, 2 Stingscourger, 2 Gempalm Incinerator.
Game 1: Early Mox + Instigator (and friends) quickly called him to concede. He couldn't find the Elephant Grass nor Solitary Confinement in time to stop me.
Game 2: Early Lackey and Piledriver pressures him to find an answer that did not come. He was holding Solitary Confinement in hand but couldn't find the last mana source to cast it. however, it may not have mattered since I was holding a K.Grip in anticipating of the Confinement or Moat.
Finals :: Lucas with BUG Landstill 2-1
Game 1: I manage to mull to 5 and ended up with Fetch, Mountain, 2 Wasteland, and Goblin Matron. I contemplated to going down to 4 but couldn't complain about having an abundance of lands. Since I only ran 17 other lands in the deck, I had a good chance of drawing non lands. Most of the creatures I played in the beginning were countered or met with Innocent Blood / Diabolic Edict. I made the mistake of playing/searching for duals early in anticipation of finding a Tin Street Hooligan. The result was my Taiga and Badlands were Wasted. He casts Worm Harvest to place a wall between him and I and eventually drops Jace and Shackles to lock me out.
-1 Tin Street Hooligan, -2 Stingscourger, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Game 2: Most of my creatures were either met with counters, removal, or Pernicious Deed. Eventually a Goblin Matron (tutored for a Ringleader to refill the hand) managed to stick. I didn't want to hardcast the Ringleader risking it being countered by FoW or Counterspell. So I slowly built up the Vial to 4 counters. He uses up most of his mana by casting Vedalken Shackles and taking control of the Matron. End of turn, I Grip the Shackles. On my turn, I cast Warchief, Piledriver, Vial in Ringleader and swing in for the win.
Game 3: He mulled to 6 and decided to keep despite letting out a few moans. By turn 3-4 he had Wasteland and a lone Mishra's factory. He was doing my job for me! To add insult to injury, I wasted the Factory and had ample time to chip away at his life with my ever growing army.
Took a few duals home for my efforts after 8 hours of play. And to fathom, I had fought for a Top 4 split.
Notes
- After two test tournaments with Instigator, I am a firm believer that this is the way to field Goblins going forward. It provides an even more explosive power that can turn the tide in any game. Once we overcome the obstacle presented to us (could be a key enchantment, artifact, lands, creatures), Instigator allows us to seize the slight opening in our opponent's plans. I really can't complain about having 8 Lackey effects in the deck.
- Will continue to keep the pair of Hooligans main deck due to the amount of Batterskulls, Jittes, Shackles, and Vials I've seen at the tourney.
- I have always loved going RGB Goblins which allowed me to deal with a wide variety of decks. But in this tournament, I had to learn when to time the playing of my duals. If I play the Taiga too early, there was a risk it'd be wasted before I manage to draw any Hooligans. In fact, I've held the Taiga in hand, missing land drops for a few turns until I drew Holligan/ K.Grip
Sideboard
Didn't face any No RUG, Zoo or any other Green heavy decks. Contemplating on removing the pair of Perish for Pithing Needles which could come in against opposing Vials, Shackles, Jace, etc. I could try Warren Weirding once again but Stingscourger has been nothing but stellar taking over Weirding's role.
Congrats on the finish. If you don't mind I have a few questions about your build.
2 mox: were you happy with them? Every list I've seen recently is rocking 2. Have you tested 1, 2, and 4? What about spirit guides vs. mox? I've most of the posts since misstep was printed and didn't see a lot of discussion about the number of mox to run or mox vs. ssg.
2 stingscourgers main: seems like a lot. Did you ever draw them when you didn't need them?
No ancient grudge: I thought I saw one of your lists a couple pages back with them (although it could've been someone else's) that had them. It seems like k grip was better for you in your meta but if you were to play in say an scg open would you play grudge?
Chalice: I always liked cabal therapy as my combo hate when I'm in black. Also thorn of amethyst. Is it mostly for hive mind and Belcher?
Black splash: speaking of which is black even necessary any more? The zoo matchup I guess is pretty bad w/o in my experience but I've heard people say they find it about even rocking Rg or mono red. If black is for NO decks metamorph kills progenitus AND emrakul while being pretty solid on his own (also racing progenitus is very doable).
No ports: I guess in 3c you don't have room for them but recently decks have been packing more and more basics (UW mystic decks are playing 5-8 IIRC) and I love me some port action. Not to mention its randomly good vs stuff like painter and Stompy decks that rely on sol lands or I guess even something like Dredge or TES that plays city of brass (every point counts).
Last I just want to say how awesome it was that you beat a T1 hypergenesis. Gotta love that.
Please explain that with card tag as I can not find anything with metamorph in its name thats capeable of killing progenitus OR emrakul, unless they are yours anyhow.
Phyrexian Metamorph
Since daPaule asked for an explanation:
* Metamorph's CIP (or ETB)-ability does not target anything, thus Progenitus' and Emrakul's protection (from whatever) don't work here
* Metamorph allows you to choose any creature on the battlefield - not just your own
* When metamorph enters the battlefield as a copy of the chosen creature, statebased effects are checked (here: legendary rule) with the result that both card go to the graveyard
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Thanks for the report P-Air. Really enjoyed it.
I tested a build I was working on the other day.
Its 22 lands, 26 core, and:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Warmarchall
1 Wort
Played lots of games against Stoneforge decks, and Cabal Therapy is just INSANE in the MU. It rips apart their hand so badly. Combined with Stings to deal with Tokens, and clear for Lavamancer, it turned uot to be a fair MU pre-sb (positive when I could hit a Therapy), and very good pos-sb (brought only 3 Knesis and a Squad).
Also, I want to fit a 2nd Wort and a Warrens Weirdings here. Wort was just amazing in this build, and Weirdings would have won me 2 or more games I lost. Do not want to cut Warmarchall though, since he's a perfect outlet for Therapy, and provides bodys for Gempalm, which this build was lacking.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
@P-AiR: Nice job, thanks for the write up. I run a build similar to yours but in mono red, and I agree with you 100% on Warren Instigator. I have tested Chrome Mox but found it to be less than ideal. I often felt I couldn't afford to throw away that extra goblin when building up early pressure.
You seemed to have either Lackey/Vial or Mox+Instigator on your hand in most of the games. Do you mulligan agressively for those cards?
I think this round shows how valuable Ancient Grudge can be in the sideboard. I think in the future you should drop your K-Grips for Grudges. Artifacts and Equipment are the card type du jour.
This illustrates why I prefer builds with 4 Ports over those without. Port is capable of locking out control decks, which against decks like Enchantress will be your only interaction pre-board.
Also, Enchantress makes me more of a fan of running a Black splash because Warren Weirding allows you to interact with decks rocking shroud/protection creatures.
I see you're running Chalice of the Void. I'm currently running a goblin build with 4 Mental Misstep. Because I have a T1 play in Misstep I'm using Thorn of Amethyst instead of Chalice. The cool thing about Thorn is that you can use it against decks that don't run creatures (like Enchantress) to keep them from developing their board. I think Thorn just has a much broader application than Chalice.
Congrats on the finish.
Hello people, I lurk around these forums for quite a while but I don't really post a lot. Anyways, I'm running a monoR build and I've been testing 2 Tarfires MD and they are pretty good. They surprisingly kill almost anything in matchups that aren't zoo, specially SFM. My removal slots look like this: 2 Stingscourger, 3 Incinerators and 2 Tarfires, and it works good so far. I'll just post my list for reference:
// Lands
18 [M10] Mountain (4)
4 [JGC] Wasteland
// Creatures
2 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M12] Goblin Chieftain
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
// Spells
2 [EVG] Tarfire
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M12] Goblin Chieftain
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
2 looks like a good number, since we don't want to draw them later in the game, I believe. I also didn't feel like pumping goyf was that big of a deal; tarfire is pretty cool.
Tarfire is not a good choice since all decks ran tarmagoyf (zoo,rock,maverick,bant variants,team america,ugr faeries.... etc. and list goes on) you will have problems on the late game if he becomes a fatty. Replace those tarfires with bolts or pyrokinesis mainboard if u want to stay on your mono R built. Ive tried it before and it works great.
Cabal Therapy + Stingscourger/MWM is stupidly good :D I remember a very hot discussion in the old thread nuking Lejay's Therapy list. Still, this mini-combo is very backbreaking post-board, when you can bring some Surgical Extraction to finish the job.
Imagine this situation: You're facing a GWx Maverick and he has a Knight of the Reliquary on board. You play Stingscourger on KotR, Cabal Therapy for KotR. Surgical Extraction on the Knight, and maybe a Therapy Flashback to take some other relevant stuff. You've just got their biggest beater and something relevant for 1RB + 2 life. That's pretty sick.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Actually this is wrong, IMO. Tarmogoyf is only scary if they have a really aggressive draw back by lots of burn spells. The real problem are the utility creatures like Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, singular Lords, etc. If you are on the play and you go Mountain, Goblin Lackey. They go land, creature there is a very good chance you will be able to Tarfire it and connect with a Lackey. That, in addition to killing utility dorks for 1 mana and also being a Goblin, definitely makes me want to consider testing him again.
For this situation Fanatic does the same job, since I haven't seen SFM or a lord turn 1. As I stated above I see more advantages in Fanatic than Tarfire, especially when you have no mana open you can still make this point of damage.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Suggestion for a monoR build-
26 Core
22 Land
3 Gempalm
3 Tarfire
2 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
8~9 Removal pieces
Tarfires to burn Lavamancer, SFM, Bob.
Stingers to bounce fatties.
MWM to chump block Goyfs that have Tribal pump.
Sharpshooter/Prospector combo to turn dudes into damage. Also allows you to sacrifice goblins before damage is dealt to prevent Jitte counters and lifelink triggers.
I'm really interested in the Chrome Mox Build + Instigators. I think I will try 3 Mox and 21 Land in the build.
In a Meta pre-Mental Misstep, Instigator was kind of slow, so it was hard to justify running more than 2. I think this is a step in the direction to make it strong Tier 1 again. In the past when Instigator hit it's GG most of the time.
Goblins is and always has been IMO a Combo-Combo-Aggro deck. A matron/ringleader off of a first strike damage is one of the most insane CA-generating Plays. I see no problems with getting a chrome Mox into play turn 1, just get rid of the gobs you don't need at the moment. The deck is built to generate CA so I don't see any issues with chrome mox.
Current Decks:
Legacy:
Spiral Tide
Goblins
Lands
ANT/TES
Dutch Stax
Modern:
Vintage:
Go ahead and test tarfire. Utility creatures can be killed by a gemphalm or bounced by a stingscourger if this is your case. I am saying that in late game you will have a problem with those fat goyf's.... goodluck also in using your tarfire in a meta full of missteps.
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