[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[bokwinkle]

IMO Engineered Plague is useless. There are just better options. Deadguy has a positive matchup against Fish, Ghostly Prison does a similar job (if not better) against Goblins and Zombie tokens, etc. In that spot I would recommend Perish. Trust me, in this green-heavy format you'll love it, especially against an overextending Zoo player. 3-1 against them is game.

I generally agree here. I've been steadilly trimming Plague from my 75 - I started with 4 and I just keep cutting them. Also, Plague's are generally only extremely effective if you land 2. Landing 1 just isn't enough to win generally...it just buys time.

However, perish's effectiveness is generally declining as well. Rock decks have taken a strong decline and zoo is going more and more red every day and some decks are utilizing Jace as a finisher. The best thing Perish has going for it is it kills Progenitus (IMHO). I've been generally unhappy with Perish these days - most times I just want a path or edict effect.

[Richard Cheese]

I generally agree here. I've been steadilly trimming Plague from my 75 - I started with 4 and I just keep cutting them. Also, Plague's are generally only extremely effective if you land 2. Landing 1 just isn't enough to win generally...it just buys time.

However, perish's effectiveness is generally declining as well. Rock decks have taken a strong decline and zoo is going more and more red every day and some decks are utilizing Jace as a finisher. The best thing Perish has going for it is it kills Progenitus (IMHO). I've been generally unhappy with Perish these days - most times I just want a path or edict effect.

Retribution of the Meek is arguably better than Perish here. No harder to cast, hits Progenitus, but also Emrakul (F-ing Hive Mind is everywhere now). The only drawback is that there will be times where you can't nail KotR or Goyf, but it's when it does hit them that they're actually threatening anyway.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Tim, mind posting your recent decklist?

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Artifact Creatures
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Tribal Enchantments
3 Bitterblossom

Basic Lands
1 Plains
5 Swamp

Lands
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Perish

[bokwinkle]

Dick, that's super secret tech that you're not supposed to be spreading! lol.

I mentioned that card to a very good local player and he started running it in his white lists...and just recently I've seen it start popping up in other sideboards as well. Everything you just said about it is absolutely true. Also, 3/4 goyfs and 3/3 Knights are pretty rare and unthreatening. Also, the thing that you didn't mention is that it kills Batterskull equipped creatures.

---------

Tim, I'm surprised you've cut E-Tutor from your 75.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Tim, I'm surprised you've cut E-Tutor from your 75.

I just didn't have enough slots for it in the board. I was having a really hard time trying to figure out the board the night before since it was a completely unknown meta. I hadn't touched the deck since Baltimore, or really played any Magic in general, and my buddies told me about the event the day before it.

With the move to Extirpate over artifact yard hate I figured E Tutor may not be as good as it used to be for me. Plus I had cut Null Rod, which after the event started and I saw like 3 Affinity decks plus MUD I wished I hadn't. I don't think I would've boarded it in that day at all though. I might go back to it and drop the Gatekeeper for a one of Phyrexian Metamorph though.

[Rizso]

I wouldnt go for Retribution instead of perish but guess it depends on meta if you dont have lot of elves or Mavericks in your meta it might be a go. But for now i prefair the Perish over the Retribution as Maverick and elves are doing good in my meta.

[bokwinkle]

Well, gravehate is important, I'm struggling with that too atm. Extirpate seems like the right card for the job, but I can't justify running it when I can tutor for Metamorph to shore up matches against reanimator, NO, or Show and Tell - and extirpate is really only good against reanimator. Plus E-Tutor gives me more outs to ANT, and can help in some of my aggro MU's...something Extirpate doesn't really do. The downside, of course, is that the dredge MU is pretty abysmal with basically one grave hate card.

I wouldnt go for Retribution instead of perish but guess it depends on meta if you dont have lot of elves or Mavericks in your meta it might be a go. But for now i prefair the Perish over the Retribution as Maverick and elves are doing good in my meta.

Well, I've heard a lot of talk of elves doing well, but I haven't actually played against them in a while. I guess my thinking is that if I can play about 10 targeting removal spells + discard and misstep elves shouldn't be a tough matchup regardless of whether or not I have perish.

[Rizso]

Extirpate and surgical extraction is fine against hive mind and dredge as well, sean won alot of games against hivemind cos he extracted on thoes intuitions. TBH crypts arent really good against dredge either, a jailer would be way better running then the crypts if really want to fight the dredge decks.

But really the board can only be 15 cards and there is just to many decks to have board against everything. So thoes card should imo be against dredge, zoo, natural order and combo with spells. Ethersworn cannonist does work against both storm and hive mind.

[Anthem]

Have people given up on Oblivion Ring? I haven't seen much of it in sideboards these days. As for Perish v Retribution of the Meek, I'm definitely going to be weighing their usefulness in the sideboards to come. That's a tough one.

I always run 3 Extirpate, and have been thinking about 4 since I can't tutor it. It ruins so much of this meta.

I've been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier again. I remember being told he wasn't optimal, but the protections and ability to Fly/First Strike seem tempting, plus the synergy with SoBM and Chrome Mox, though against Elspeth. Would it also be because he can't get across the red zone very well?

[Einherjer]

Well Ill show the list I am playing at the moment, its a bit... white :)

lets start with the Manabase:

4 Scrubland
3 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamps
3 Plains

As an accelerator I use:

3 Chrome mox
I tried everything, mox, ritual and aether vial and I gotta say I like this most for a controldeck like this.

Creatures

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader

Ye, the 2 must haves: Confi and SFM, ofc a playset, and 2 Mirran Crusader as final equipbearer

Artefacts

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

I think its quite obvious: The best equips for a deck like this, maybe I add SoFaI here as a 61th card... maybe...

Discard

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Ye, as said earlier I dont like Thoughtseize, thats why I split Duress and Inqui

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Ye, great removals, 4off each.

Specialities

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Bitterblossom
2 Mental Misstep

Both very nice cards, that can change the boardsituation completly.

What you think of this.. Its actually been working quite well, nothing was unwinnable(ok dredge and combo game 1 :) ) theres just one thing im "missing" comparing to other lists - the sac via edict or gatekeeper... How would you squeeze it in? And what would you use? What I was thinking:
-2 MM +2 Gatekeeper?
or rather - 2 Mirran Crusader + 2 Gatekeeper?
What would you suggest? Thanks and Greetings

Edit: And where to squeeze in Senseis Divining Top?

[bokwinkle]

Have people given up on Oblivion Ring? I haven't seen much of it in sideboards these days.

No, I haven't given up on it. The downside is that it's foiled by much of the same hate that our win-con's are (Qasali Pridemage, K-Grip, etc), so it's value has gone down IMHO. Also, it doesn't answer land like Vindicate does. So ultimately it's less versatility for a potentially less permenent disruption piece. It obviously has some advantages in terms of dealing with Emmy, coming in off SNT, and being tutorable though, so like I say...I haven't given up on it...but I'm having a more difficult time justifying it, especially since I'm considering removing wastelands from my 75.

I always run 3 Extirpate, and have been thinking about 4 since I can't tutor it. It ruins so much of this meta.

Yes and no. The problem I have with extirpate is that it doesn't actually answer combo. If you can make them discard a combo piece then it becomes a valuable card, but if you don't see a discard spell before your opponent goes off then the card is completely dead. Also, if they brainstorm and hide their combo pieces from your discard the extirpate value goes down even further. Also, much of the combo decks in the meta are now showing some redundancy with combo pieces - Sneak Show is one example, the idea of running NO and Show and Tell together is another, Reanimator is full of redundancy...you get the idea. So, generally being proactive against the current field of combo isn't necessarilly going to get you there - generally I'm finding that reaction is better in most situations.

I've been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier again. I remember being told he wasn't optimal, but the protections and ability to Fly/First Strike seem tempting, plus the synergy with SoBM and Chrome Mox, though against Elspeth. Would it also be because he can't get across the red zone very well?

The problem I currently have with stillmoon is that he's mana intensive in a deck that already mana intensive. Also, cards with Lightning in the title are becoming more prevelant in the meta. I think the idea that his protections don't play with Elspeth and Mom is generally irrelevent in most matchups - especially Elspeth since it's just as easy for her to make tokens and jump them instead. And in a lot of matchups mom is going to be trying to give protection from white anyway, so the fact that she can't target Stillmoon becomes highly irrelevant. Generally, IMHO, the only place where the Mom/Stillmoon interaction really impacts gameplay is against decks that run Bolts or Lavamancer (Trash, RUG, Zoo, etc)...so if you are currently running mom to shore up some of those matches then you'd need to do some re-thinking if you run stillmoon.

That being said - Bant has no way to deal with this guy, neither do any of the combo decks in the meta. If nothing else, I think that makes this card better than at least Vampire Nighthawk (who also dies to lightning and has mana issues of his own), and maybe even crusader since he at least dodges removal and offers evasion. However, that's not where the superiority ends...because the card has all of the evasion of nighthawk, plus the resiliency, plus it's easier to cast. I think the other thing to be considered is how well this card pairs with SoFI - 4 protections is nothing to sneeze at....of course that doesn't include green....but the BM sword seems like a logical choice against the bant builds anyway. Unfortunately there isn't a sword that offers pro Red and Green or this dude would be even better. Generally though, I think the Pro-Green is something that isn't that important for Stillmoon, since he can jump - and green removal isn't prevelant in legacy (yet).

More than anything I think Stillmoon really shines when there's an opposing Knight of the Reliquary - the ability to just stall the game indefinately is a definate plus for us with all of our late game card advantage.

In the current meta, with equipment, I think stillmoon is a no-brainer for anyone that is using nighthawk...but if you use him in lieu of nighthawk you need to consider the fact that you're loosing the lifelink, and therefore take another look at cards like thoughtseize and bitterblossom. Also, you should take another look at what equipment you're using, since generally you don't want to double up protections, since this is the guy that is probably going to be doing most of the heavy lifting in the deck.

I think you are absolutely correct to be looking at this guy again.

What you think of this.. Its actually been working quite well, nothing was unwinnable(ok dredge and combo game 1 :) ) theres just one thing im "missing" comparing to other lists - the sac via edict or gatekeeper... How would you squeeze it in? And what would you use? What I was thinking:
-2 MM +2 Gatekeeper?
or rather - 2 Mirran Crusader + 2 Gatekeeper?
What would you suggest? Thanks and Greetings

Edit: And where to squeeze in Senseis Divining Top?

Gatekeeper I think is generally a bad idea and greedy for a deck already running elspeth and crusader. You can always run Edicts in the board if you really think you need them, but I'm more prone to suggesting Phyrexian Metamorph anyway - it's easier to cast, has more versatility, tutorable, and answers most of the threats that you need edict effects for anyway.

If you're dying for Top then I'd probably just look for an E-Tutor package since you're already running Bitterblossom, Moxen, and 3 equipment. Also, E-Tutor makes a lot of sense in a deck that is already going to a heavier white build.

IMHO, E-Tutor is a straight swap for bitterblossom, and/or you can cut your vindicates to 2 pretty easilly as well - if you felt like you were missing the removal you could replace one of them with O-Ring. So...

-1 Bitterblossom
-2 Vindicate

+1 E-Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

You could even cut a second bitterblossom for a second tutor if you found that the deck could support it. Essentially, you still have the same chances of landing a turn 2 Bitterblossom OR the same chances of getting that permanent removal that you need to answer a troublesome Jace or equipment....all while giving you a way to run top without disturbing the versatility that your deck already has. This is one of the reasons I love E-Tutor.

This suggestion is pretty similar to what I'm doing:

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bitterblossom
1 E-Tutor

And the Revoker may go to the board in favor of another E-Tutor. Basically, in my deck, the Metamorph and Revoker are taking the place of Vindicates, they aren't straight up removal, but they do serve as comperable answers to many of the threats that I'm running vindicate for - but they have the added bonus of being able to carry swords, and upping the creature count in our deck is pretty crucial.

[Einherjer]

I am really sorry and I dont wanna look as I didnt appreciate your knowledge about DGA but what would you do for DiviningTop if I dont want Enlightened Tutor at all, I had him once, I dont like him sorry, what changes would you like then?

+1 Top or +2 anyways?

[bokwinkle]

There's nothing wrong with disliking E-Tutor, it's strictly a preferance call. It is card disadvantage after all, and it's relatively slow, it was a tough sell for me at first too.

If you don't want to run E-tutor at all I'd probably do a straight swap for Vindicates for them (2 for 2). I know when I first ran the deck I thought I couldn't live without 4 vindicates, but I've found that as long as I have some Path's in the sideboard that Vindicate really isn't all the important anymore (at least in my meta), since we already have wasteland to deal with troublesome lands, and discard for everything else - generally I've found that vindicates were the most sided out card throughout the past few months of me playign this deck.

[Einherjer]

Oh damnit I must sound like a little nerd...sorry...really sorry.... what if I dont wanna give out Vindicates? Because actually I cant life without them :) Too many decks in my meta where they are the only winoption preboard? Thaaank you very much :) I was thinking of -1 cc1 Discard and... maybe 1 land

[bokwinkle]

haha...yeah, discard and land were probably my next suggestion as well. Discard can probably go to a minimum of 6, but I would caution against cutting your 1cmc discard too deep - it really is extremely valuable when protecting your threats. Also, with moxen I wouldn't feel terrible about going to as few as 21 land...which could probably be 20 if you weren't running elspeth. Land is especially easy to cut when you're adding top too.

Just out of curiosity - what in your meta is so dominant and is only answerable by Vindicate?

[Einherjer]

^^ my meta contains most likely of my friends and beating Affinity without Vindicate is kinda...brutal, same for Enchantress, but ok I exegerated when saying its a 100% but you know... I bought it 1 week ago - i know its no argument but still :) Thanks for you patience bud, once Im home from Oxford where I am atm (like back on Monday) or earlier when I got time, ill post my Decklist again and yeah...
I got another question: Im trading witht he locals tomorrow evening...
They want my Merrowset... and maybe my Aether Vialset....

And yeah I need from them Scrubland, SoFaI; Top...

What should i suggest?
like Merrow+Vial= 1 Scrub 1 SoFai + 2 Top
Or what? any suggestions?

Thanks

[Rizso]

I just got my foiled Phyrexian Crusader's so time to try them out against red based aggro.

[Namida]

Yes and no. The problem I have with extirpate is that it doesn't actually answer combo. If you can make them discard a combo piece then it becomes a valuable card, but if you don't see a discard spell before your opponent goes off then the card is completely dead. Also, if they brainstorm and hide their combo pieces from your discard the extirpate value goes down even further. Also, much of the combo decks in the meta are now showing some redundancy with combo pieces - Sneak Show is one example, the idea of running NO and Show and Tell together is another, Reanimator is full of redundancy...you get the idea. So, generally being proactive against the current field of combo isn't necessarilly going to get you there - generally I'm finding that reaction is better in most situations.

This reminds me of a situation I observed a few weeks ago. I cobbled together a WB deck and gave it to my friend to play in his first Legacy Tournament. He didn't win much, but the one match that he did win...well, let me tell you. He lost Game 1, and sided in Extirpate. In Games 2-3, he won because he Extirpated Brainstorm. He thought that he was being slick by removing all the Brainstorms from his opponent's deck...But in reality, what he was actually doing was crippling his opponent by forcing the shuffle. He'd play a discard spell, and when his opponent Brainstormed in response to hide his best cards, my friend would just cast Extirpate. It was brutal. In Game 2, the friend hit a Brainstorm after casting Thoughtseize to see that his opponent had another Brainstorm in hand. The real issue was that the opponent Brainstormed his combo cards away since he had Spell Pierce in hand to counter any counterable spell, untap, cast Brainstorm to draw his combo, and have the mana to win on the same turn. In Game 3, the opponent hid two crucial lands from a Hymn to Tourach just to have them shuffled away. Is that even remotely viable as a strategy, or was it just "something that happened?"

[movingtonewao]

wow seriously that's quite a grand story! Well it's a mini 2-card combo but it sounds really neat. Until the blue players start figuring out that you're up to such a 'dirty trick', i guess there's no harm trying it out :)

[Einherjer]

Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?