Why not???? Decissions, sideboarding plans, decklist, the few MU, is always useful information.Originally Posted by Malakai
Soooo guys. First time post here for me. I've been playing the TNT-style ANT list recently, but have just got my grim tutours together, so i'm going blue/black for a while I guess :). A few quick questions-
I found the ANT decks I made/found just a fraction slow. Because I've been trying to make my game against blue stronger (which it is....) it seems like i've lost speed, which is starting to make matchups like dredge/a fast affinity hand a bit of a nightmare (esp on the draw). Is this what people are finding? or am I not mulling hard enough? Any solutions (other than playing TES :)).
Also, What do people think about boarding more ill gotten gains and becoming a bit more 'IGGy-pop' against discard (and prob dropping Ad-N after a board)?
And finally - would you always go for a turn 1 Ad-N where possible against an unknown opponent? I played a fairly big tourny over here recently and fizzled 2 Ad-N turn 1 from 20 life, where I could probably just have waited until turn 2-3 anyway and had some mana floating. although turning on spell pierce/daze seems bad if you can avoid it...
Ta guys
The Spanish Tunnel King
:)
Regarding Ad Nauseum, in the list that you're running (with Grim Tutors, UB ANT) Ad Nauseum is usually an emergency pull the trigger type of play. It's not the strongest deck to be going for the AdN kill right off the bat as you don't have access to any open mana unless you can land a petal (of which you can only run 4, sadly) Also, flipping a grim tutor is a net damage of 6 life after cast. You'd be much better off going for a turn 1/2 IGG kill than you would with AdN.
Against discard heavy decks I've found myself cutting out my 4 duress and putting in 2 more tendrils, another IGG and another Ad Naus but I play a TNT list with a few Chrome Moxes to help my early AdN kills.
Playing against blue is always fun, as most people will tell you, unless a turn 1 duress shows nothing but lands a Stoneforge Mystic, you're going to have to sit, and wait, and sculpt. A Natural tendrils with 8 cards in hand is very difficult to stop. Just sit back, relax and make your hand what you want it to be before attempting to go off through multiple snares, forces, and missteps. While batterskull has made this harder to do, splashing red for pulverize and meltdown allow slow play to be much easier.
Regarding the speed of the deck, against something like dredge or affinity you have to either keep a hand with utility to fight against speed of another clock or something that can make the turn 1/2 kill which should really not be all that hard. Ship the cantrips out and plug in more business - just kill em.
- Chikenbok
Although I agree with most of what you wrote in your last post this one surprises me:
I leave Duresses in to rip their Hymns from their hands. And: I don't board additional Tendrills because this increases the chances that Tendrills is discarded + Extirpated.
Against discard heavy decks I think additional AdNs are always worth boarding (if you have them in SB. Same goes for Dark Confidant.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I agree with gobolord here. Additional tendrils only shine in matchups where you go draw go, until you have 8 cards, versus their 7 and start slamming rituals in their counters. Discard decks do the opposite, you'll have 2-3 cards in your hand aka tendrils in hand generally sucks. Just lay down some fast mana (petal, led), ponder and brainstorm into infernal and win.
As a new guy to storm combo I am slowly starting to learn how to play the deck correctly. I hope I can put up some kind of reasonable play, when the metagame shifts towards even more Aggro/Midrange so storm can shine again.
My questions:
How strong is a ANT list (no red) without grim tutor? When does it goldfish and is there something to consider concerning anti-hate / SB,...
Has anyone ever tested rhystic tutor?
Rhystic tutor seems like a hellbent infernal tutor that has an auto-counter clause built into its text. Its like mana-leaking your own spell. In a meta that is slowing down, and doing so quite quickly (Legacy really has become 2-3 turns slower than it used to be), I don't think there's any room for anyone to be able to pay 2.
UBg ANT is still incredibly powerful without grim tutors. It has the ability to hold its own very well in the late game and being able to run the full 8 duress effects is a very strong feeling in a deck that is as explosive as ANT. Also, the ability to splash in green for Swarm is still, if resolved, a game ending play.
The only reason I personally switched over from ANT to TNT is for a bit more early game face beating (missing the IT, but having the BW in hand - a bit more threat density) against all these new FOWless Maverick decks that try and resolve a gaddock teeg turn 2 and lock you out. Having to win turn 1 is stressful all the time! It also moves the number of tutors up to 7 maindeck and 1 to wish for which helps me play in long ass attrition wars late-game.
Unlike your Deck kills turn 1 or 2 (threshold topic!) rhystic is shit compared to grim. Moreover it's Bad days for storm thanks to mental misstep and spell snare so playing with only infernals and cantrips is slower and very risky. TES has more angles of attack and might be a smarter choice atm if playing storm
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As I was discussing with another gentleman on the forum, what do people think of replacing preordains with Tops as to appeal to a better mid/late-game. As we all know that the meta is slowing down, quite a bit, and top might be the answer that both ANT and TNT (What I play) need. It also allows the deck to burning wish > Doomsday with an active top online if needed.
SDT can do some neat thinks and, as you say, gives the deck a better late game, but here in also lies the problem. By pushing the deck's fundamental turn, you suddenly gives aggro decks a chance to race you, and during post board it becomes easier to find hate.
The card in itself also suffers from a number of problems. It doesn't add storm, is virtual card disadvantage, and don't help towards getting threshold. Also, it is quite mana hungry and opens you even more up to stifle.
That being said, the BW > DD seems like a nice option. However, if it really was necessary, maybe one should just play DDFT instead.
I guess what I was really alluding to was, in a meta that is becoming dominated by landstill variants/control matchups and the rare zoo/fish match, a turn 1 top (that resolves) turns into a turn 2 setup, and a turn 3 attempt to win the game.
From this point there are two logical outcomes - you get overwhelmed by your opponents wall of counterspells and fail to win the game. In this regard, you're still sitting on an online top with the ability to sculpt your hand, every turn, until its time to 8 v 7 your opponent or at least, make a hand that can't be beat in which case threshold will still be easy to achieve by the time one is ready to begin casting cabal rituals (a single preordain won't hit thresh on turn 2 anyway)
The other side of the equation is that you simply win on turn 2/3.
Having someone stifle my top activation is quite alright with me, as long as it keeps their stifle away from my storm trigger....
The doomsday option was simply an idea that I probably will not even include in my final build but I really think that turning the fundamental turn for ANT/TNT from 2/3-3/4 isn't that drastic in the long run seeing as how the first spell we play will get misstepped anyways. I'm going to continue running some numbers and results and I'll have the statistical outcomes up soon.
- Chiken
If you play 4 Tarpan in the Preordain slot and lose to aggro decks often, I'd be surprised. Top can be cast for storm against aggro, and if you are so lacking for business that you needed that Ponder to be relevant on turns 2-3, then you can probably get 2 top activations using a fetch in that time.
Top is better when you're leaning hard on that slot.
Top takes off pressure from your valuable discard spells and Brainstorms by requiring an answer from blue mages (this diverts Forces and Missteps like few others save maybe Xantid Swarm).
Top is better against disruption decks. Brainstorm + Top is a proven winner facing down Eva Green and Rock-style decks.,
Top can take over games when it sticks. It turns the 8 vs 7 situation into a 9 vs 7 situation or lets you get a card up faster.
Bottom Line: The format has slowed down and the only reason for playing Preordain (speed of the format making more than one activation unlikely, and thus top be unprofitable compared to preordain paired with control decks don't exist) has gone away. Cut Preordains for Tops.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
What he said.
As requested by Liam, here's the untested 3-Colour TES style deck I came up with for my local metagame. (2 Affinity, 2 Combo Elves, 1 Zoo, 1 Dredge, 1 Burn, 1 Mono-Blue Landstill, 1 Stoneblade.)
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
4x Rite of Flame
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Burning Wish
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Meltdown
2x Pyroblast
3x Tendrils of Agony
1x Wipe Away
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
@TheFringThing - would you consider cutting a chrome mox/fetchland for another red source (badlands) for a pulverize in the board? Its just simply better than meltdown most of the time. Otherwise the deck looks solid - very similar to what I'm running but I run 4 duress with the 3 thoughtseize and no rite of flame plus 3 tops for the long games. I've found that in most 'TNT' builds, the chrome mox seem to be unnecessary.
With only 3 MD thoughtseize you've never felt like you're diving headfirst into a counter-war with your opponent? Is one seize a game enough to make sure you're going to go off?
My idea was to take my current TNT list (very close to Liam's) and speed it up with Chrome Moxes and Rites. At Ari's suggestion, I think I'll cut a mana source or two for some Duresses. My current list has better game against blue (4 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Bob in the board), but most of my losses locally are to aggro decks like Affinity steamrolling me with lethal damage as early as turn 2.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
I've always found that against affinity, 2 fetchlands into a pulverize simply ends games right there. I would try it.
On a side note, would anyone consider - with either a UB ANT list or a TNT list, putting 4 x chant and 1 x Tundra/Scrubland in the SB against super heavy blue decks?
Regarding Pulverize, I'm only running one red source currently. I don't happen to own a Badlands. Unsure whether it's better than Meltdown anyway.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Pulverize ends up being a free spell with a couple of R producing duals. Just spend 1R for Burning Wishing it and bye bye Affinity.
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