[Deck] Aggro Loam

[sdematt]

I didn't do it, but I can ask for them to change it. Other than it, it looks okay?

-Matt

[NilsH]

It says "Löam", looks strange, should be Loam. Also I think the picture of Loam should be more in front.

[sdematt]

Going into this weekend, and after reading the relevant Legacy articles this week, it looks like:

-People have finally learned how to beat SFM or at least do better against it.
-People may pack more Dredge hate.
-U/R Landstill looks like an alright deck on paper (it has Blood Moons)
-Loam is being talked about as a good card.
-Natural Order decks are doing REALLY well.

With this, I'm wondering what I should do with my board before the tournament in SCG Seattle.

Again, right now, I'm on:

1 Crucible of Worlds (extra late game power, great in case my Loams get Extirpated, etc.)
2 Perish (Maverick/Progenitus/Bant)
2 Pernicious Deed (Dredge, Affinity, randoms, Maverick, Zoo, Merfolk)
2 Red Elemental Blast (blue decks, answer to Jace/Back to Basics/Clique etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (SFM decks, Crucible, Shackles, etc.)
1 Ancient Grudge (With the possibility of Blood Moon and less Crucible/SFM, I'm thinking 3rd Grip?)
3 Extirpate (other Loam decks, Dredge, Combo, etc.)

I'm wondering if Grudge should become Grip (there's some extra value in getting 2 artifacts with Grudge, and it's not useless if flipped into the yard) and if Deed should become another Perish and another piece of Grave-hate (Crypt?).

Or, maybe go with 3 Leylines and 1 Extirpate? I'm not sure.

-Matt

[sdematt]

I played in SCG Seattle, and I had this happen:

-Played against 0 Stoneforge
-Lost my Bant matchups to Progenitus (after switching to Edict in the board, fearing Reanimator)
-Lost a game to not drawing a life from the loam in 15 turns and several cycling lands.
-Opened infinite crap hands that had no real mana.

Overall, the deck was fine, I just drew like crap. So sad. I'm thinking about adding maybe 2 Burning Wish, as other Aggro-Loam players REALLY suggested it, but I'm not so sure.

-Matt

[Admiral_Arzar]

-Lost my Bant matchups to Progenitus (after switching to Edict in the board, fearing Reanimator)

Overall, the deck was fine, I just drew like crap. So sad. I'm thinking about adding maybe 2 Burning Wish, as other Aggro-Loam players REALLY suggested it, but I'm not so sure.

-Matt

Burning Wish is the NUTZ, partially because you can go Wish -> Perish/Virtue's Ruin against Hydra Avatar.dec. I started out running 3 and eventually went up to 4 because I was wrecking my sideboard anyways, and it's just awesome.

On another note, I tested a Naya build and found it to be even slower than the Jund build, and thus not particularly good. Sure, KOTR is good, but I ended up with hands clogged with 3-drops that didn't do anything without Mox Diamond.

[Richard Cheese]

Burning Wish is the NUTZ, partially because you can go Wish -> Perish/Virtue's Ruin against Hydra Avatar.dec. I started out running 3 and eventually went up to 4 because I was wrecking my sideboard anyways, and it's just awesome.

On another note, I tested a Naya build and found it to be even slower than the Jund build, and thus not particularly good. Sure, KOTR is good, but I ended up with hands clogged with 3-drops that didn't do anything without Mox Diamond.

Been trying a 4-color build lately and while Knight is hit and miss, StP and Vindicate have been excellent. The manabase is just so greedy though, consistency has been an issue.

I saw some discussion of Gamble a few pages back...did anyone actually test it out?

[AggroSteve]

could someone post a list how a burning wish - list would look optimized in jund colors in your opinion, and maybe some suggestions for sideboard

thanks a lot

[Aggro_zombies]

Been trying a 4-color build lately and while Knight is hit and miss, StP and Vindicate have been excellent. The manabase is just so greedy though, consistency has been an issue.

I saw some discussion of Gamble a few pages back...did anyone actually test it out?

If you're running Burning Wish, Wish is better. Otherwise, Entomb is probably better.

@sdematt: sorry to hear that.

I personally don't like Burning Wish, for the typical reasons: lack of a real sideboard, Wishing for an answer and then casting it is slow, redundancy in the main helps to solve most of the deck's problems.

[Richard Cheese]

If you're running Burning Wish, Wish is better. Otherwise, Entomb is probably better.

@sdematt: sorry to hear that.

I personally don't like Burning Wish, for the typical reasons: lack of a real sideboard, Wishing for an answer and then casting it is slow, redundancy in the main helps to solve most of the deck's problems.

I would think the advantage of Gamble over Entomb comes when you aren't just looking for Loam, but again I haven't tested it. I've been running wish because I like the flexibility and not being as susceptible to grave hate, but I may proxy up a list just to see how big the differences are.

[sdematt]

Wish gives you faster answers to Leyline of the Void (via Wish for Hull Breach, cast Hull Breach).

Other than that, good for Perish (not Chainer's Edict. I watch a guy lose to Bertoncini by getting Edict and Bertoncini having a Clique to sac in response) and possibly Hull Breach/Firespout/Dreams. We'll see how the meta goes. All this Hive Mind makes me very blah.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

I would not want to play this deck in Hive_Mind.meta.

If you're going to do Burning Wish and sideboard answers like Perish, why not do 2-3 Perish and 2 or so Burning Wish? That way you can board in some Perish in games two and three, but you (a) save board space while (b) increasing your virtual Perish density (with 2 main plus two Burning Wish for one in the side, you save one sideboard slot over having four). It also gives you the flexibility to wish for other things as the situation arises.

TBH, though, Leyline is very rare. Even the decks that could cast it don't often run it. I would rather just run Grips in the side because they have value against Mystic decks as well. Furthermore, with the amount of burn you run, Firespout seems actually kind of weak, and Dreams is Dreams (read: I still hate it).

EDIT: to elaborate a bit on my reasoning:

Burning Wish typically eats up ~6 or so sideboard slots, leaving ~9 "real" sideboard cards. I don't think that the ability to Wish for cards dramatically improves game one scenarios against various decks, and missing a sideboard means you're probably actually losing some percentage points in games two and three because all (or most) of your relevant cards are one-of Wish targets, while your opponent gets to board in live stuff. There actually aren't a lot of things worth Wishing for that wouldn't just be better off as 3-4-of sideboard cards; Perish is one because of all the RUG and Bant decks. However, against those decks, you really want Perish. There are a couple of options here:

1) Run more Wishes. This plan has a number of flaws. First, if you run four Wish but only have a couple targets, the Wishes lose a lot of value - and then it's not worth running four. In order to justify running that many, though, you run into the previous problem of eroding sideboard space. Plus, RUG has a bunch of counters; while they're mostly conditional, I still don't want my answer to my opponent's trump card to be a chain of spells wherein I have to resolve both in a precise order.

2) Run more Perishes. If you board in four Perish, you're more likely to see it. The problem is, I don't know if Bant/RUG (basically, Progenitus decks) make up enough of the field to justify going all-out like that, and Progenitus is the real issue with those decks. Furthermore, other decks that get hit by Perish, like Zoo or G/x aggro, are already soft to your high amounts of removal and card advantage. Perish might not even be necessary there.

3) Run a mix. This frees up some sideboard space while giving you more control over how often you see Perish in various matchups; where you really want it, you can board some in and still have Wish, whereas it will always be an option in other matchups. I'm not sure this will work but it might be worth looking at if you want to try Wishes.

[ESG]

I played my Fires-heavy Wish build at SCG Seattle. I fared better on the day than Matt, but, at 56th place out of 189 players, still finished far below what I was expecting. I would have liked to play against more aggro and more aggro-control decks on the day. Merfolk would have been nice. I was paired against a rogue storm combo deck (won), GW Maverick (won), Hive Mind (lost), BW Stoneforge (won), Blue Zoo (lost), Hive Mind (lost), Micah's Aggro Loam list with Leylines (lost), Zoo with Leylines (won). I'm convinced I could have won the match against Blue Zoo and Micah's list, so my fault on those. I won't make the same mistakes next time. Overall, the deck performed great. Burning Wish was a house all day. The biggest mistake I made was not having Angel's Grace in my sideboard, which would have made all the difference in the Hive Mind matchup. That deck was everywhere. I want to see the breakdown the next time the Hatfields roll out the data.

[sdematt]

I was thinking of running 2 Wish, 2 Perish. Board 1 in, and keep 1 in the board. In the board, I'd also run a 1-of Regrowth. I've been missing E. Witness, since it's so freaking slow, but I've missed it nonetheless.

RE: Angel's Grace:

Sure, there's a slot in the board, but is it worth it? Are the 4 of them you board going to destroy your other matchups sideboard space? Plus, then you have to run 4 colours :P

RE: Punishing Fires

Run the freaking combo. I'm running 3 Grove and 2 Fires, and it's fucking amazing. Zoo really doesn't like it, Dark Confidants, Stoneforge, Factory, Jace, B/W Aggro, Merfolk, etc. REALLY good. Plus, you basically get to run extra Taigas. I'm down :P

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

Ok, someone school me on the BUGstill matchup. I tested this last night and it was just this terrible war of attrition. He kept countering loam and I kept dredging it back. I'm thinking now I shouldn't have cracked his Standstills and used the opportunity to build up a hand. I tend to just play terribly when games get long and repetitive like that, any advice is appreciated.

[sdematt]

Board in Grip for Deed. Profit. Bring in Crucible. Profit. Land Seismic Assault. Profit.

Basically, bait Deed. Make him NEED to blow Deed with minimal pressure. Then, just play a threat. Constantly bombard him with Wastelands and kill his Jaces (Fires is good for that).

-Matt

[ESG]

Worm Harvest is a strong answer. It doesn't care about Pernicious Deed.

[Hanni]

If you can get the Loam engine going, Landstill should be an easy matchup. They have no effective way of dealing with Worm Harvest outside of Cunning Wish for Extirpate, but who really runs CWish in Landstill anymore?

[Admiral_Arzar]

could someone post a list how a burning wish - list would look optimized in jund colors in your opinion, and maybe some suggestions for sideboard

thanks a lot

Quoting myself from page 21:

This is my most recent Jund-colored list (yes, it is 61 cards):

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher

4 Mox Diamond
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Shattering Spree
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Firespout
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reverent Silence
1 Worm Harvest

1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void

This list is burn-heavy, which is very appropriate for my meta - full of Stoneblade.dec, Dark Confidant, Cat Sligh, and Tribal decks. Burning Wish -> Devastating Dreams is, for lack of a better word, devastating in non-blue matchups. Burning Wish -> Perish also gives it a shot against NOPRO decks, which are otherwise a very bad matchup. Chalice comes in a against combo or decks like Cat Sligh and Burn where it saves your ass. Combo is still an incredibly bad matchup though, I don't ever really expect to win unless they go all-in on Empty the Warrens or whatever. I run no grave hate because nobody but me plays graveyard decks in my meta. This deck has performed pretty well, but I think I'm going to experiment with cutting black and running Knight and STP, as there's a lot of red spells in my meta and Bob rarely lives long enough to make a difference.

I experimented with the Naya list and found that it was even slower (too many three-drops). Also, Bob > KOTR.

[Richard Cheese]

If you can get the Loam engine going, Landstill should be an easy matchup. They have no effective way of dealing with Worm Harvest outside of Cunning Wish for Extirpate, but who really runs CWish in Landstill anymore?

The hard part was getting Loam going. I managed to stick an Assault and kill some Jaces (Jacei?), but he countered Loam probably 8-10 times over the course of the game, and I did a lot of dredging to get it back, which canned all my wishes. I think my mistake was breaking Standstill to try and cast Loam again. I was just trying to exhaust his counters before he found a Deed and nuked my Assault, but I probably should have waited it out and sculpted a hand so as to apply a lot of pressure at once.

[Hanni]

If he was able to counter Loam 8-10 times, my guess was that he nut draw'd against you. I'd say try the matchup a few more times before coming to any conclusions about the matchup. From my experience as both the Landstill player and the Aggro Loam player, Aggro Loam is favored.