Has anyone thought of using Autumn's Veil in the sideboard instead of Xantid Swarm? It seems more proactive, like Silence in TES. If they counter it it adds to the storm count.
Having tested Belcher fairly thoroughly, the absolute worst opposing card (and often the only thing that prevents the deck from winning) is a Force of Will.
The problem with autumn's veil is that it subtracts from your availible mana on the turn your going off, you also aren't guaranteed it will resolve, while if it doesn't you can gamble and continue to go for it, xantid swarm is certain.
personally, I've never really liked xantid swarm, and even less now that mental misstep is around. it's weak to a lot of hate. STP, path, bolt, and stuff. but i've never tried it myself, so i can't say anything bad about it, but thats what i see. please prove me wrong tho.
I'm a fan of guttural response, but I agree Mental Misstep has hurt the deck a lot.
Street wraith, Gitaxian probe, Manamorphose? Why not all??
It tested my 12 cantrips Belcher with succesess!!!
// Lands
1 [U] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
Let's comment!
@GoldenCid: It's funny to see this. I actually just put together the exact same 60 card list. I saw the 4 Probe sitting on my card table and said why not. I have not got much testing time with it but for like 7 games. 3 of them I managed 12 tokens, 1 of them I dropped 16, and 2 of them I tapped Belcher on turn 1. Only 1 game I had to Belcher on turn 3. 12 cantrips is nice, Probe helps storm count plus card draw. So far really liking it.
What happened to the 1st Amendment?
I like the list. But just a small nitpick on your sideboard, I would run diminishing returns. It may sound weird but you use it for the same reason you use infernal.
Yeah! The only disadvantage if it can be called, is that with 12 cantrip, not 8, is more difficlt to rise the mana in pool to play Goblin War Strike for lethal or for t2 kill. Just that in my opinion.Originally Posted by Xero_2285
Yeah, the 12 cantrip build is very strong. I am glad you guys are having so much success with it.
If you fear all the lifeloss and cantripping, then I think there is merit in cutting Street Wraith since it does not add to your storm count, doesn't tell you your opponents hand, doesn't fix your mana, and is usually not a good imprint target for Chrome Mox.
I think absolutely 100% though, every single belcher list should be playing...
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
There is no excuse to cut either card. I think Street Wraith belongs in the list too, but that is more up to personal preference.
I was testing revival (4 Probe + 4 Morphse + 2 Street Wraith + 2 Revival) and what i observed is that it could be great as well as poor. Ok, it always apport to the storm count but it potential shines when you have a cantrip in hand to "combo" with in other cases it's almost useless. However, in a MM infested meta it could help a lot. Nowadays, i added regrowth to the side to wish for in case it's necesary.
Has anybody maken any experience?
I am playing RG belcher, and would like to see a sideboard for this deck. So far I have
4 red pyroblast
1 REB
4 shattering spree
1 goblin war strike
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens
I have 3 empty spots, what should I put in?
Ding, fries are done
Xantid Swarm is very solid if you see a lot of countermagic in your meta. Tendrils of Agony is generally better than Grapeshot. Infernal Tutor can be very helpful, as can Reverent Silence.
+1. Tutor+ Tendrils are great!
My sideboard was different than this.
I had
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering spree
1 Slagstorm
1 Goblin War strike
1 Hull Breach
2 Tormod's Crypt
or
2 Pyroblast
Played the following list to Top 8 at Nationals Legacy Side-Event going 4-2.
Round 1 - Merfolk - 1-2
Round 2 - Merfolk - 2-1
Round 3 - Brain Fart - 2-0
Round 4 - Brain Fart - 2-1
Round 5 - Sneak Attack 0-2
Round 6 - NO Bant 2-1
Top 8 - Bant 0-2
Not going to write a full report because can't remember it all, but things to note from the day.
- Control players feel comfortable keeping hands with single Mental Misstep. In two of the game 3 games, I was able to lotus petal, lotus petal, LED, pitch 2x Guides into Belcher. And Lotus Petal, pitch x2 Guides into Seething Song into Belcher play LED. The look on their face when they look at the misstep in their hands is priceless.
- Dark Ritual wasn't awesome, and most of the time had to Manamorphose before I could cast it.
- Stifle is annoying, and worse then a hard counter when you are on the draw.
- The deck still mulls like a pile of junk, keeping a hand with 6 ramp, and no win is so much better then mulling to 5 any day.
QUOTE
2-Land Blecher
2-Land Blecher
Simian Spirit Guide 4
Elvish Spirit Guide 4
Tinder Wall 4
Burning Wish 4
Chrome Mox 4
Dark Ritual 4
Desperate Ritual 4
Empty the Warrens 3
Goblin Charbelcher 4
Land Grant 4
Lion's Eye Diamond 4
Lotus Petal 4
Manamorphose 3
Rite of Flame 4
Seething Song 4
Taiga 1
Bayou 1
Sideboard
Thoughtseize 3
Empty the Warrens 1
Hull Breach 1
Ingot Chewer 4
Pyroclasm 1
Tendrils of Agony 1
Xantid Swarm 4
What are your thoughts on 2 land vs 1 land? Did you ever whiff on a belcher? I thought the main reason (besides dark rit of course) to go 2 land was to play some protection in the main (duress, etc). Was thoughtseize in the board any better than say REB would've been? Did you ever tendrils for the win? Anyways, I don't think there will ever be a way for this to not mull like crap until they unban wheel of fortune. I guess that's what you get for playing the most broken deck in the format.
The same for me!! Discard is the only reason for going into 2 land?
More or less as far as I know. You can use the discard as protection to go off. Odds of whiffing are still low with 2 Assuming you go off in your opening 7, it would be 1:53 odds of hitting a land IF you had one in your hand. If you land Grant, it is 1:52, and If you went off no land, 2:53. So while it is not much more likely to hit a land, it is still MORE likely. Also, most black splashes I have seen do Run Protection which takes away from the explosiveness of the deck.
More or less as far as I know. You can use the discard as protection to go off. Odds of whiffing are still low with 2 Assuming you go off in your opening 7, it would be 1:53 odds of hitting a land IF you had one in your hand. If you land Grant, it is 1:52, and If you went off no land, 2:53. So while it is not much more likely to hit a land, it is still MORE likely. Also, most black splashes I have seen do Run Protection which takes away from the explosiveness of the deck.
I've been playing this deck for a bit and I think it's a really strong choice.
8 Spirit Guides
12 Free Artifact Mana
16 Red Rituals
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
1 Taiga
11 Win Conditions
Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Mental Misstep
5 Burning Wish Targets (Empty, Tutor, Pyroclasm, Reverent Silence, Diminishing Returns)
2 Shattering Spree
---
Here are a couple thoughts:
Manamorphose does so much for the gameplan. It imprints on Chrome Mox like a champ, drives up storm, helps cast Tinder Wall out of nothing but red mana, and occasionally finds the last mana you need to go off.
Mental Misstep is a dramatic improvement over REB. It protects your hand from Duress/Thoughtseize on the draw, and counters opposing Missteps on the play, all with no loss of tempo. You can punish a blue player for thinking their own Misstep will be enough to stop you. It is also a good proactive answer to Pithing Needle.
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