But that just isn't true because it is feasible to slow-Dredge around a Crypt or Relic instead of completely dumping your hand and basically going all-in on one draw. You're comparing recovering from eight lost cards as a result of L.E.D. to three cards lost as a result of Unmask. Unmask is more versatile and doesn't necessitate going all-in on one shot, especially if hate has already hit the table.Originally Posted by Final Fortune
It's completely possible to explode after recovering from hate by the fourth turn. Most Combo decks don't care too much about the graveyard post-board; they care more about protecting their own interests with anti-hate-bear tech, but you'll notice more Control and Aggro Control decks do pack cards like Crypt and Relic. Those are some of your best match-ups and it's highly unlikely decks like those will kill you by the fourth turn if they've already committed their first two cards turn one (a land and hate with no damage pressure to you), with the extra-added potential of mulliganing to find a hate card. Now your opponent is down to six or five and probably kept a weak hand with one of those cards to blow you out - which wouldn't be the case if you had Unmask.
Our deck doesn't mulligan aggressively at all, so you could play draw-go for three turns (drawing into another potential Unmask) and stare down a Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique and Noble Hierarch and still blank them out after the fact. By chaining Dread Returns using Sphinx of the Lost Truths and chump blockers in Nether Shadow if need be, your turn four could even conceivably be good enough to combo out.
Yeah, that's why I'm still a bit skeptical of Child of Alara becoming a general target, because it does necessitate other cards to work, unlike the dependable Angel/Rasta/Primus trio. In order to cast Child and another target like Realm Razer to seal the deal, you might need to go through all four Dread Returns in the deck (possibly chaining two Sphinxes beforehand to find everything), which might be too much to ask. Of course, I need to actually play with the cards before I make any kind of judgment.
Golgari Brownscale would probably gain you less life over the course of a game than Greater Mossdog, considering the higher probability Mossdog has of hitting better dredgers, which then dredge into chump blockers. If you're planning on running dredgers 17-20, it'd be between Necroplasm and Mossdog (discounting Darkblast in Salvage lists, but at that point you're probably running too many dredgers), and I'd probably side with Mossdog.
A slow-roll Dredge plan is not feasible after getting Crypted after a turn one Unmask. It'll be turn five before you actually discard, and turn six (!) before you start up the engine (barring Street Wraith). I'm not sure you could come back from that facing a SOM draft deck.
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As of Dredgers # 17-18/19/20:
If running Bloodghast one should run Dakmor Salvage obviously.
If not, I really like some combination of Darkblast and Dakmor Salvage. Salvages can still cast Therapies and pay Dazes from time to time and if you've got a Darkblast or two in your deck as well, you'll have the chance to kill random Peacekeepers and similar stuff. The only thing you lose are a few more creatures, which might lead to a Nather Shadow not being able to rise from the dead. IMHO the merits outweigh the flaws.
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
I just picked this up for my first Legacy deck since 2008. I know it's a far from optimal build (just copied one of the original lists that I saw).
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to all who are working on this because every comment is read by a ton of either would-be or current Legacy players who are looking for help on the deck.
I think for my sideboard I'm going to try to just make it transformational LED Dredge if possible.
I remember when you had to really think about trading a Shivan Dragon for a Mox Jet. And usually you thought about that trade for weeks wondering if you should've kept the Shivan.
Thanks for reading. There are a surprising number of people who just jump in and start posting before reading anything, so we appreciate those who do read what's already been discussed. (And I'm talking about The Source in general, not this thread specifically.)
Hi,
i' ve constantly read articles and posts on the source and am glad to become a sourcer, too :P
I have got two innovations to think about:
1. Serum Powder to add consistency.
You could replace for example Shambling remains as it is a shabby dredge-3-creature
2. Call to the Netherworld: Together with Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in the graveyard it becomes an instant draw spell and without Phanta it can fetch Street Wraith in the end step. Post-board it could harmonize with Faerie Macabre, but i'm not sure if it's just worse than the baubles because it doesn't help dodging relics and is missteppable.
Edit: Call to the Netherworld could also enable Vengeful Pharao as perhaps a 2-of as it could prevent your bridges from getting removed via Phantasmagorian
I searched the thread but didn't see any mention of this:
Why is Jin-Gitaxias not listed as a possible Dread Return target? StP is obviously the main thing against it since it doesn't do anything until the end of turn, but there's Cabal Therapy to clear those out first and if you only get 1 use of his draw 7 you're going to be able to dredge a lot of cards from it.
I tested both briefly, and I felt that neither of them were really worth it. With a 16 dredger list, you will rarely not have a dredger, and even if you dont, you are more likely than not to not have a Powder. If you really want to make the list more consistent, I think putting in more dredgers would be better. The powders arent relevant in the graveyard, and they just dont feel like theyre worth the 4 slots they take up: most of the time they dont do anything even if you do open with one.
Call to the Netherworld seems good in theory, but in practice, it just never happened for me (although my testing of it was somewhat brief). It takes 4 slots, you have to get it in your starting hand, its vunerable to MM, and it doesnt do anything in your graveyard. If you have a Phantasmagorian and a dredger in the yard, your probably not doing too badly anyways. The situation where you could use it with a Faerie Macabre or a Vengeful Pharaoh almost never comes up. If you are running a Bloodghast list, I feel that Edge of Autumn would be better, since at least dredging a salvage and cycling the Edge would trigger Bloodghasts and isnt counterable.
On the other hand, Ive never been a big fan of the Nether Shadows. What do you guys think about cutting the Nether Shadows and running 3 Phantasmagorian, 4 Bloodghast, 3 Dakmor Salvage, 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Edge of Autumns? It looks like that configuration would have similiar speed of a Bauble list and have decent recursion abilities, although it might be somewhat inconstant.
Edit:Dread Returning a Sphinx if you run Flame-Kin or Sadistic Hypnotist usually wins on the spot. Even if you dont run Flame-Kin or Sadistic, a Sphinx would win next turn as well, so why run the risk of Swords or them going off on their turn?
I'd rather have the Nether Shadows. They're easy to recur and can be fed to Ichorid if needed.
Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn seem bad for 2 of the main reasons you listed against Serum Powder and Call to the Netherworld: They don't do anything when they're not in your hand. And with Dredge you likely aren't going to be drawing cards after turn 1.
Quite a few lists aren't running Flame-Kin and even then you can't always count on dredging it with Sphinx since its a 1-of. Not every deck plays StP either. I'm just suggesting it as an option, not as a definitive card.
Honestly, if you want the 'win now' combo, just put in the Mimeoplasm-Murderous Redcap-Lord of Extinction combo. I have it in the side, but will likely move it to main. As a bonus, all 3 cards are Ichorid food should any of the 3 be removed.
The difference, I think, is that Serum Powder's effect can be better achieved by running more dredgers and Call to the Netherworld just doesnt do enough. But Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn are similar to Chancellor of the Forge and Baubles/Gitixian Probe, both of which are still being considered, or were previously considered. And Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn offer some benefits over Chancellor/Baubles/Probe; Dryad Arbor generates zombies, while Edge is both uncounterable and instant (similar to Street Wraith, which is core).
What Im saying is that it takes the same slot as Sphinx, and but with the added drawback that you have to wait a turn for it to work. If either of their effects proc, you will most likely win, but with Sphinx, you get the Cabals now, instead of waiting til next turn, even if you arent running Flame-kin/Sadistic. It also lets you dig for other return targets like Iona without having to wait a turn, which is quite relevant against combo.
Personally I am of the opinion that if you want a win now target at all, Sadistic Hypnotist is the way to go, since it still works if you only had 3 creatures and 1 bridge before casting Return, takes only 1 slot, and can be fed to Ichorid, but other people dont seem to agree with me on that one xD
Has anyone a list that is "updated" and for use now, since Mental Misstep is on the run?
Cabal won't work as good as before and for discard you need something else then...
Besides, are there really any options to play against grave hate? I haven't seen a solution yet.
In fact, this thread was just started a week or so ago, because this is a new and different approach to the dredge archetype than the usual one. Also, Mental Misstep could be considered the one main reason why one would ever want to play this version of Dredge over the usual one. This version just rips most Misstep decks apart.
As of hate, this is one of the disadvantages this manaless version has: It just doesn't have the mana to cast anti hate.
No offens, but doesn't it then lose after each sideboarding? Everybody has gravehate in side boards....As of hate, this is one of the disadvantages this manaless version has: It just doesn't have the mana to cast anti hate.
At least I never seen any decks without it.
The deck is able to grind out wins in the long game. The only hate card that actually does anything is LotV. Rausch, who won a SCG Open with the deck, had his graveyard exiled 3 time in a game and still won.
I like this non-diluted deck. But how would you sideboard? Cutting 1-ofs? Or just taking a few cantrips out and part of the dread return package?
I really don't think the 'Bauble' route is the way to go here. When you look at several builds people are using, by cutting the Bloodghasts, Nether Shadows, and Dakmor Salvages, you're taking out a huge chunk of aggressiveness and replacing it with a faster, riskier variation that seems to be more reliant than the previous incarnations on its opening seven as you'll obviously never want to purposely draw a card through the draw step outside of being on the forced draw turn one.
The list you've quoted includes twenty cards that are not creatures, with an extra Flame-Kin Zealot added in the mix. That just doesn't seem correct when you consider Zealot's most effective situation in this deck is when you have Nether Shadows and Bloodghasts that get pumped up with Haste and allow you to put a significant amount of pressure on an opponent. The Baubles, in my opinion, dilute this variation of Dredge a bit more as it is more focused on its threat-density and grinding out victories using the attack step.
By trading a more threat-dense creature base for Baubles, you're lessening the effectiveness of your Dredges by potentially 'milling' cards like Probe and Baubles which are completely useless. Dredging cards like Nether Shadow, Gigapede, and Bloodghast opens the deck up with a different angle of attack and doesn't force you to take more aggressive mulligans or fear a well-timed Mental Misstep on Probe which could be disastrous. I think people are trying fill a void where a void never existed; Rausch's deck was perfectly suited to ravage Control-based strategies (Aggro Control and mid-range Combo), which continue to perform well (albeit struggling a tad). Look at how much Manaless Dredge has popped up on the Open Circuit since Rausch won; negligible.
The addition of Baubles also opens the deck up to Null Rod hate, which is seeing more play. This could also inherently force players to play first and take advantage of an early Null Rod or similar strategy. Baubles outside of the opening seven really become moot as by that time you're looking to fill your graveyard up and not worry about drawing cards through the draw step, so this could again dilute the deck's effectiveness outside of speed and consistency. We already have enough to worry about with graveyard hate, so opening ourselves up to that extra hate, however narrow, can still be a problem. We need to alleviate the pressure put on us after winning the first game, and although Baubles do allow us to slow-cantrip into Dredge, we still have to wait in order to attack. I really am not sold on the idea of dropping my pants during an opponent's upkeep and opening myself up to hate I cannot stop.
The Bauble lists work in theory, but I don't like taking the deck's primary source of recursion and pressure and shifting it to the sideboard when it should be the core of what the creator purposely tried. The sideboard obviously needs fixing, which is what I feel we should be focusing more on as it seems people are divided around several main-deck ideas and sticking to them. I don't think the lists are 'bad,' I just think they're a bit riskier and dilute consistency a bit more.
I dislike the 2nd FKZ.
I think the Bauble list is actually more consistent because it gets to the plays that really matter faster and just as reliably. Namely, in my opinion: Ichorid + BfB, and Dred Return + Narcomoeba. I think FKZ + zombies is great and FKZ + Nether Shadow/Bloodghast is terrible. With multiple zombies, FKZ scales up in value, while producing creatures the hard way (with actual cards, rather than tokens) scales up FKZ much more slowly.
I haven't seen any Null Rod being played.
I don't give a fig how Rausch built his deck. We should build the best deck we can, test it thoroughly, and accept only results. Rausch's results are important from that angle, but they're far from final.
The deck's primary source of recursion is easily Ichorid. He has more power than Bloodghast, always has haste, dies on his own, and doesn't need to throw away cards to get him out (i.e. we can always Dredge our best card rather than a 'Dredge 2' Dakmor Salvage). When you're not using Sun Titan to put Bazaar of Baghdad into play, Ichorid is clearly the superior creature (especially given our high creature count).
Ichorid is the deck's primary source of pressure in some circumstances, but in many others Narcomoeba (especially in conjunction with Bridge) is the main beater. In my experience, Bloodghast is typically win-more, as he doesn't usually come out for me until I've already begun comboing for the kill, or I've already sewn up the game with Ichorid.
In any case, I think a useful idea at this point would be to start thinking about the different sideboard plans we might adopt and how many cards they fill, which ideally will point to a particular configuration or set of configurations as optimal.
Anti-Leyline of the Void:
4+ Slots MD
8+ Slots SB
Pros: High Synergy with Bloodghast, addresses the best hate card
Cons: Huge number of slots, probably requires Dryad Arbor package
Anti-Combo:
0+ Slots MD
4+ Slots SB
Pros: Flexible, high synergy with Baubles (if running LED), can potentially be relevant against other decks
Cons: Tends to be dependent on the opening hand,
Speed Change sideboard:
0 Slots MD (by definition)
10+ Slots SB
Pros: Tunes to be reasonable against faster decks (Combo, burn) and brutal against slower decks (Counter-based control)
Cons: Takes up a lot of sideboard slots without actually changing our strategy
Dread Return target sideboard:
0-2 Slots MD
1+ Slots SB
Pros: Very flexible, can fill out any sideboard nicely, can potentially be sculpted very well against the field, high synergy with maindeck draw creatures (to find sideboarded targets)
Cons: Requires us to assume an essentially winning position before getting value (resolving Dread Return), FKZ is just better than most creatures for us
Blightsteel Colossus:
1 Slot SB
Pros: Absurdly good in 1-2 matchups, only takes 1 slot
Cons: Essentially useless in most matchups.
Are there any packages that have been seriously discussed that I'm forgetting?
How exactly do you plan on Dread Returning Blightsteel Colossus into play?
It's basically a free win vs. Painter if they don't have crypt. Mill by entire library except for one? Sure, kill you next turn.
It's value isn't as a Dread Return target though, which he may have presented it as.
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