What was that all about?Originally Posted by lorddotm
Anyway, on the Silence VS Chant debate, I was in a 100 man tournament in Denmark facing 7 out of 8 blue based decks, my only two losses where against Bant decks that had the white leyline in the board together with Engineered Explosives. The thing is Orim's Chant might be better against the aggro matchup and Dredge but that's matchups that you should already win, Silence is just foolproof against random Leylines. If you board into 4 Xantids with 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Duress in maindeck then 50 % of your protection is still worthless with leyline on the board. However if those chants where Silences then non of your protection spells is useless. Facing those two common sideboard cards takes down your options post board to bounce the leyline without protection or die. But as someone said it all boils down to what you expect to face.
I believe the "Stifle/Spell Snare comment" was pointed at the recent top 16 decklists, sporting spell snare (any standstill/stonestill list) and stifle (thanks to someone)... slowly making its reappearance. When Gerry T. top 8's with a deck that has stifles, people start playing them again.
Do any of you find Duress to be losing you games in place of Thought Seize or Silence? In a Stoneblade, NO Rug and BANT metagame, 3xMD Vendilion Clique and turn one acceleration into turn two Vendillion Clique is becoming increasingly standard, and Duressing the opponent to reveal Clique, discard a Force of Will and be "Clique locked" has been seriously pissing me the fuck off, because Silence would've forced the opponent to remove Vendilion Clique to Force of Will, broken the "Clique lock" and gained card advantage instead.
Are the 3xMD Duress "necessary" for Chrome Mox, or can we replace them with Silence instead? Has anyone else found accelerated Vendilion Cliques to be more annoying than Counterbalance, and how are you guys playing around this?
Just a Quick question, how would the situation be different with a Silence in that situation? This is my assumption of your situation from the limited information you offered, you Duress and the opponent shows Force and Vendillion Clique, you take the force and get Cliqued... am i right?
ok, say you have Silence in that situation, you silence the opponent, out of his hand his plays are
1 Let the silence resolve
2 Force it and bluff a counterspell
3 Clique you in response (which is the right option)
1 and 2 are retarded and assuming it is a good player he will make the right choice of number 3. In this scenario you are still Clique locked silence is on the stack and the opponent can still draw a blue spell to activate FOW the next turn.
As i see the situation the Duress is better since although you get Cliquelocked the opponent has lost his FOW, giving you information of the opponents hand instead of a Silence floating around on the stack doing nothing.
@ Chikenbok thanks for clearing that up :)
The Silence either baits Force of Will, RFGing Vendilion Clique or it forces the opponent to cast Vendilion Clique now instead of sandbagging Vendilion Clique vs. my acceleration and waiting to shuffle away my threat while my mana is left on the stack.
I'm pretty sure the SB Duress should be a SB Thought Seize just because of Vendilion Clique, you have to get it out of their hand ASAP.
Although your still left with FoW on their hand, arenīt you?
I was watching merfolk playing TES yesterday and saw him keep this hand on the play. 2xWasteland, Aether vial, 1 mishra's factory, 2 silvergill adept, coralhelm commander. I though that the keep was fine because the wasteland should slow TES down enough that he has a good shot of drawing into disruption. Also i think the average 6 card hand is going to be worse. Two other good players there thought it was an easy mulligan. As far as I know he plays a 14 lord variant with no standstills and all 12 free counters.
You have a regular hand with some acceleration, Ponder and Brainstorm, but you need a business spell. You have three non-fetchlands in play and you've already made your land drop this turn..
If time isn't an issue, what is the most efficient way to use your cantrips? Ponder then brainstorm? Brainstorm then ponder? Does your answer change if you see a fetchland or something else?
I thought the answer was straightforward, but I'm interested in what other people think.
Even if you had not made your landdrop jet I would always use ponder first. Depending on the game situation/cards you see I would perhaps wait with playing your brainstorm until next turn (so you can make a landdrop).
The reason to play ponder first is so your are able to see the most possible cards if you would'nt see a fetchland in those first 3.
Situation 1: BS then ponder:
Lets say you search for a tutor and play brainstorm first seeing no tutor and no fetchland.
You play ponder seeing one more card and let's say there still isnt the tutor you are looking for.
result: you saw 4 cards + one random card.
Situation 2: Ponder then brainstorm
You play ponder seeing nothing you can use, shuffle and draw a card.
You still haven't found your card and play brainstorm.
result you saw 6 cards + one random card.
It depends on when you need to win. If you need to win now, leading with Ponder makes sense because it gives you the highest chance to find a business spell. However if you have time, I usually like to Brainstorm, then Ponder. But it really just depends on the game state.
I try to play BS on these situations:
- I only need 1/2 cards to win now, for example, if I just need LED or IT and am playing against some non-blue deck
- I can shuffle away the 2 bad cards
- I have too many cantrips, and just need to turn those into real cards fast
Ponder comes T1 most of the time, and BS + Fetch on turn 2
I could be wrong, but isn't Ponder better when you only need one card to win now since it see's more cards?
This was my thinking as well. If for some reason you don't find your business in the seven cards you see, it isn't unlikely that you'll find a shuffle effect in the last four cards you see if you really need one.
I think I'd do the same thing if I hadn't made a land drop. Finding a fetchland at just about any point just sweetens the deal.
First off, why do you make your third landdrop when you are going to cast cantrips this turn? Also, what does a regular hand mean? Do you only need one card (=Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish) to win? What are you playing against? Do you have protection in hand? When do you need to win?
1) Assuming you can surely can kill your opponent with one of the cards mentioned above, I would cast Ponder before making the landdrop. You only need one single card, so Ponder is better here than Brainstorm because you don't need a fetchland to shuffle if the card you're looking for is not in the top three. Keeping Brainstorm is also stronger against Vendilion Clique or discard.
2) Either, you have won now, or you have a new card. If it's a fetchland, go for Brainstorm. If you don't, and you can afford to wait, cast Brainstorm on the next turn (unless you draw another cantrip, in this case return to step 1). This way you see at least eight cards before your next turn.
Something that has made the difference in some games: don't play a fetchland in the combo turn before an Ad Nauseam, unless absolutely necessary.
I've ran into situations where I played the fetchland, ended up with 1/4 life after the Ad Nauseam and couldn't crack the fetch because I would lose (0 life or Bolt).
Sometimes I'll attempt to crack a fetch to bait a stifle - other than that the only time I'm fetching is when I need to shuffle...
Additionally, if you have a fetch in play already and think you might be tight on mana post-Ad Nauseam, you should fetch before you cast Ad Nauseam. If you flip your fetchable lands, you can't fetch them later and you could easily screw yourself over.
Again, if you don't need the landdrop pre-Ad Nauseam, why do you play the fetch here? You can just wait and drop the lands you're going to get off Ad Nauseam. But if you need to play around Daze or something, you should most likely fetch before Ad Nauseam anyway.
TES plays only 3 dual lands, if you have a fetch in play and draw all 3 dual of the Ad Nauseam, then your fetchland can't fetch anything.
I've actually lost a game becase I had to play a fetch to get hellbent and then found my threat ending up at 1 life and one mana short.
If you haven't made the landdrop before you cast Ad Nauseam and draw all lands you could fetch, well, then just play one of them and save one life.
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