For possible sideboard packages, I forgot to mention:
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity
I mean, I guess if that's what you're going for in that match-up. What I'm thinking here is that the sideboard has to be tailored to either circumvent grave-hate or adopt a strategy using additional lands and spells to actually destroy grave-hate.Originally Posted by bakofried
I think Leyline of the Void is relatively good in the sideboard. However, I think by adding Serum Powder and Leyline of Sanctity you're forcing to deck to mulligan more aggressively. Supposing you had six cards in hand that were just insane - with a Powder - you now need to weight the risks of exiling a potentially really good start in order to open with a Leyline. If the deck had more access to lands I'd say this would be too much of an issue, but I'm not so sure on a Leyline suite in the board, although it is enticing.
My post was mostly a joke...
But I wasn't advocating Leyline of the Void + Serum Powder... unless you also get Leyline of Singularity to blow up opposing Leyline.
Okay, there is way too much sarcasm and or undetectable humor going on in this thread then (remember a few pages back). Either someone be serious or not at all - please.
Whatever feels right is obviously a judgment call; I run a set of 'Voids in my sideboard.
Super short report:
Yesterday I played a small tournament at a shop. Ten ppl showed up, we palyed 4 rounds.
Round 1: BANT Stoneblade.
Game 1: I draw no dredgers in my initial seven. Crap. On my second draw step I drew a Shambling Shell. Crap. At least I can start dredging. He has Hierarch, SFM and Jitte out. I still manage to win with Ichorid beats. Phantasmagorians are awesome. Not one Therapy resolved.
Game 2: Solid hand. I started slow dredging. I won with Ichorids even after being Crypted twice.
1-0
Round 2: High Tide combo.
Game 1: I draw no dredgers in my initial seven again. Crap. I think I drew one on my third draw step. He comboes and win.
Game 2: I knew I had forgotten something. It was a colossus in my sideboard. I draw a fine starting seven, but he comboes out turn 5.
1-1
Round 3: UW Stoneblade.
Game 1: I draw no dredgers in my initial seven yet again. On my second draw step I drew Imp. I barely won thanks to main deck Inkwell Leviathan.
Game 2: Very good hand. I beat him with Ichorids first and then with some tokens + Elesh Norn + Leviathan. I didn't see any hate.
He tried to attack me from different sides. Killing his dudes to remove my bridges, he even removed my Ichorids from the game. But it wasn't enough.
2-1
Round 4: UB Reanimator.
I think this is a very bad match up. I won on pure luck.
Game 1: I started with a dredger, two Wraiths and a Probe. He begun droping a land. I drew and discarded Troll. He drew and passed. EOD I double Wraith. I dredge in my draw step. Then Probe. I begin throwing Therapies at him and discarding his whole hand except for a Blazing Archon. :D
Game 2: I board in Leylines of the Void. I don't see them in my starting seven. He begins with land go. I draw and discard a dredger. He plays land and Relic removing my dredger. I draw Wraith and discard dredger. He tries to remove it with with Relic but I cycle Wraith in response removing something irrelevant. He then Duresses me removing Bridge and plays Bojuka Bog. I loose.
Game 3: I start with two Leylines in play. He confesses he doesn't have an answer to that. We still play the game and win it with him playing just a few cantrips and a Relic.
3-1
I win the tourney! I got a foil Flooded Strand for my troubles.
This deck is really powerful in the right meta. Without much combo and Leylines this is the time to try this deck.
Please don't laugh at my sideboard. It's basically whatever I found in my binder :(
This is my list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Gigapede
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Terastodon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Trygon Predator
1 Razormane Masticore
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
Now Playing:
- Commander - Godo, Bandit Warlord
- Commander - Sydri, Galvanic Genius
- Commander - Saffi Eriksdotter
Running a proactive card like Leyline of the Void just doesn't seem good; we should be the ones controlling the flow of the game, thereby forcing the opponent to react by either combating us or overpowering us. We shouldn't really be reacting to the opponent's deck (aside from forms of hate), especially with unsynergistic cards like Leyline of the Void. The only deck it will assuredly harm is the mirror. For example, Reanimator will thank you for the extra turn and just cast Show and Tell or bounce it with Echoing Truth. I suppose if Dredge is running amok where you live it could be good, but in a general sense, it'll likely do more harm than good to you.
Colossus doesn't really do much against Solidarity, because they'll just Blue Sun's Zenith you out. It'll only help if they quasi-fizzle, for instance, if you pressured them enough with a combination of Ichorids and Cabal Therapies and forced them to combo before they could reliably mill you and Stroke you. Colossus is pretty much strictly for the Painter matchup, and should probably only be run if that's a popular deck in your area or you're going to a bigger tournament and expecting more of a general metagame, like an Open.
Last edited by KevinTrudeau; 08-05-2011 at 06:22 PM.
Find enlightenment for just $29.99!
So if Leyline of the Void is, as you see, more of a liability than anything, what could possibly be more utilitarian when the only focus should be on Dread Return targets or free-of-cost spells (as we run little to no mana anyway)? How is Dredge being 'proactive' a bad thing when that is the very core of the deck's existence? I think you contradicted yourself here:
and here:Running a proactive card like Leyline of the Void just doesn't seem good...
So, if we're not supposed to be running a proactive card like Leyline, but not supposed to be reacting to an opponent's deck, what...exactly...are we supposed to be doing here (lol)? The deck is already explosive as it is; running some free graveyard hate - basically the 'hammer and sickle' of all free graveyard hate - doesn't to me sound like an error. The sideboard slots that are already dedicated to Manaless Dredge are basically predicated on free spells and D.R. targets, and this card seems like decent filler for a variety of archetypes.We shouldn't really be reacting to the opponent's deck (aside from forms of hate), especially with unsynergistic cards like Leyline of the Void.
It's a win-condition on its own.
As Leyline of the Void is a reactive card, I would be willing to bet that that's what Kevin was trying to say, and mixed up his words. If that's the case, then I agree with him. I think Leyline of the Void merely tolerable against a lot of the relevant decks and only great if a lot of opponents are also running manaless dredge (with no answers).
However, it is not a win condition unless our opponent is just cold to it (i.e. is on Manaless Dredge themself)
Then what else could we possibly run in a deck predicated on running (at most) three or four lands in its sideboard?
Chancellor of the Annex
Lion's Eye Diamond
Leyline of Sanctity
Dread Return targets
Unmask
Mindbreak Trap
Maze of Ith
Wasteland
The Baubles / Blooghast package (to swap out)
An anti-Leyline of the Void package
Mental Misstep
etc.
Didn't I have a huge list of possible sideboard configurations a page or two back?
Brainstorming:
Blightsteel Colossus/Progenitus
Lion's Eye Diamond + Arrogant Wurm + Reckless Wurm
Memite + Dryad Arbor + Chancellor of the Forge + Basking Rootwalla
Sharuum the Hegemon + Phyexian Metamorph
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Glacial Chasm
Leyline of Anticipation (to flash in Baubles and Dread Returns and Therapies)
Pact of Negation / Slaughter Pact / Pact of the Titan
Demon of Death's Gate / Delraich
Krovikan Horror / Squee, Goblin Nabob (to get you up to 8+ cards as an alternative discard outlet)
Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction
Raven's Crime (with Dakmor Salvage, of course)
Golgari Brownscale / Razia, Boros Archangel
Sky Hussar (with Narcomoebas, of course)
Riftstone Portal + Ancient Grudge
Soul Spike / Sickening Shoal / Gut Shot / Spinning Darkness / Vengeful Pharoah / Contagion
Vampire Hexmage + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Dark Depths + Barren Moor (with Dakmor Salvage in the Main) -- I actually really like this plan (especially against Leyline of the Void), if you're already running 16 cantrips in the main deck. If there's a combo kill that's less mana or deck-space intensive, I'd be happy to hear it.
Obstinate Baloth / Dodecapod / Metrognome / Wilt-Leaf Liege / Sand Golem / Pure Intentions / Mangara's Blessing (this would be a big swap for all the Duress targets, ideally, so that they're forced to take one of these, mainly Metrognome or the returns-to-hand ones, and give you free guys/discards)
Tortured Existence (with Dakmor Salvage and Street Wraith, obviously)
I'm sure there are countless more sideboard possibilities, many of which are worth considering.
Edit: After some testing, it does appear that the HexDepths transformation plan is just the stone cold nuts.
Last edited by ajfirecracker; 08-08-2011 at 02:34 AM.
What would you address with Leyline of Singularity? I'm asking, since it single-handedly makes you lose, unless you think you can win by a single Thug beating or something like that.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Here's a janky 'combo' to consider:
Mimeoplasm + Giant Solifuge + Lord of Extinction
Courteous of the Cephalid Breakfast Thread.
DR a Mime which targets Solifuge for Haste Trample and Shroud, then targets LoE for a metric f*ton of +1/+1 counters.
Last edited by iPhael; 08-08-2011 at 04:07 AM. Reason: Derp.
You board in both Leylines as a 4-of and hope to have both in your opener. You bring both into play and your opponent's Leyline of the Void and your own LL of the Void die because of the Legend rule.
Serum Powder makes you find both.
The whole thing was more of a joke though, so anyway.
Something in general:
Guys, I can only repeat one thing. Sideboard techs are cool and such but you should really think if something is worth running. I give you an extreme example: Ypu can't expect to beat Leylines with 2 Forests and 4 Nature's Claim in your sb, I guess that's clear. If your mathematical chance is just too low, your tech won't work, especially for a deck that pretty much has to keep its opening 7. Rausch is with me (or rather I'm with him) on this matter, as he also didn't include any fancy stuff against Leyline. He said F*** Leyline, if my opponent has it, I lose. You'd better maximized your sb slots that help you out in other scenarios, like utility DR targets for example. There is just no way you can make a sideboard consisting of 11 Forests plus Reverent Silence work. Not in a deck that will need at least 2 full turns to recover from its own sb tech.
The only way I can think to win vs Leyline is:
- concede G2 after the Leyline
- side in a transformational sb G3. But I can't think in a good one playing 0-3 lands maindeck.
Even though this deck is an oddity and unique in its approach, one of the major contributing factors guiding Rausch to victory was an abhorrent lack of relegated graveyard removal. I understand there were several times he was 'Crypted and came back and won, which is fine, but it still doesn't change the fact the deck is susceptible to a variety of different hate cards (even a Duress is a virtual 'Time Walk' against this deck).
There is no excuse to simply forfeit to an open-handed Leyline; it's a ridiculous line of play. If someone is so sold on the first sixty being sufficient enough to win a match - which is part of the reason you would give up to a Leyline anyway - then you might as well dedicate some sideboard slots to at least circumvent the threat of it. Dredge is still functionally Dredge, so there is no reason to simply 'back off' and walk away from a big game when a lot is on the line, no matter what an opponent is playing.
It is your responsibility as a player to do whatever it takes within your legal means to win a game. To simply acknowledge the existence of a card and 'bow down before it' shows a lack of willingness to further the development of the archetype as a whole and relegate it to being a 'one-trick pony.' It basically stalls the optimization of the deck and what can be done to enhance it from a defensive perspective. The deck shows no fear, which is a large part of its appeal, but that still doesn't mean things can't be done to make it better...
...which is where Rausch's line of thought fails.
Also, you all know you can just transform the deck into 'traditional' Dredge post-board, right? Add Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, Chain of Vapor, more discard outlets, etc. It might sound ludicrous as it defeats the theme of the primary basis for which the deck exists, but it is worth taking a look at. Paradise also has synergy (obviously) with Bloodghast.
Rausch's line of thought was brilliant. He created a half-new kind of deck, knowing that it loses against a card that you'll never see at the top tables but that auto-wins against the current metagame's staples like nothing. That is not a lack of responsibility as a player. He only recognized what the metgame was like and crushed everything with his anti-meta deck. If you want to keep on claiming that people who won the SCG Open after 12 rounds and top8 with a pure metagame deck fail at knowing what to play in that certain metagame, I can't help you.
A fact is: You simply can not make a sb tech against Leyline work. 11 Forests plus 4 Dryads main plus 4 Reverent Silence is only one example of what I've tested. I played approx. 30 post board games with the deck and lost 23, and 5 times my opponent didn't find his leyline. That makes 1 out of 15 games you'll win with your tech.
After that I played some more games: I took out a forest and a Silence and only drew 5 cards. My opp took out a leyline and only drew 6 cards, so we had the scenario that everyone has what he wants to have in his opener. We factored in mulligans, but we always kept those cards. Out of 12 games, I was able to win exactly 1. Now tell me what 'a responsible player who knows the metagame and his deck' would conclude? He would conclude that there is no reliable way to fight the card and that it isn't worth packing anything against it in the board. He would conclude that he could only play the deck in a LotV-less metagame and that he would better play a different deck if the meta is full of LotVs (or Relics, or Wheels oS&M and stuff).
No, you simply can't. You play 0 lands main, which makes already 14-15 lands you'd have to have in your side in order to keep up with mana builds, so your plan already fails there. If you play say 11 lands and add 4 Chain of Vapor/Nature's claim, you're just at the same point as with the 11 Forests plus 4 Reverent Silence. Doesn't work, plus this plan is even worse than Forests plus Silence because it doesn't dodge Daze and Misstep. More discad outlets, which you mentioned, as well as the usual draw spells of a traditional build will never find room in the sb as well. Unles you play with a 27 card sideboard, which would after my calculations be the number you need in oder to fully transform your list (15 Lands, 8 discard Dorks, 4 Chain/Claim), and I haven't even factored in Careful Study and Breakthrough.
Brilliant is a little bit of a stretch. It's obvious you're a direct advocate of his play, which is noticeable in your writing. The fact is, he capitalized on an unprepared meta using a deck with an inherently high risk factor knowing full well that incarnation of the Dredge variant had not seen widespread competitive play in the Legacy format. Just because someone runs the gauntlet at an Open doesn't mean they are without fault in their deck design. Even Rausch himself said he basically tossed together a sideboard (which was terrible, by the way; he spoke on camera how he only necessitated filler by using Dread Return targets) and rode the first sixty. That's called deck design with an inherently high risk factor and a sideboard strategy with more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese.
Your opinion of brilliant and mine are obviously different.
Don't try to justify something based on a single great performance; fact is no one had ever heard of this guy before he placed and the deck hasn't performed well at either of the last two Opens since. I called his train of thought that was pertinent to the evolution of the sideboard a failure; don't confuse or mix up my argument, please.
Where in my argument do I ever advocate the use of a fifteen card sideboard littered with Forests and Enchantment removal? And to what extent was your testing verifiable against legitimate, competent decks? You haven't either addressed the decks you've played against, the competency of your opponents, and the value to which the aggression of the opponent's mulligan strategy affects their necessity to open with a Leyline.A fact is: You simply can not make a sb tech against Leyline work. 11 Forests plus 4 Dryads main plus 4 Reverent Silence is only one example of what I've tested. I played approx. 30 post board games with the deck and lost 23, and 5 times my opponent didn't find his leyline. That makes 1 out of 15 games you'll win with your tech.
You've basically dumped a poor basis for why I shouldn't relegate slots in my sideboard to defeat Leyline-based strategies - or simply graveyard removal strategies at all.
A competent, reliable player wouldn't embarrass himself on camera or his peers by scooping his cards up when an opponent necessitates a piece of hate towards it. A 'responsible' player will come prepared to a large meta knowing full well what to expect. If an independent meta is dominated by graveyard-based strategies, what makes you think that your generalization of a larger meta immediately disqualifies a smaller one to relegate hate for it? Are you advocating dropping the deck and using it as an 'element of surprise?' That takes the challenge out of the deck-building process and frankly your results are rather inconclusive based on a number of variables you haven't described.After that I played some more games: I took out a forest and a Silence and only drew 5 cards. My opp took out a leyline and only drew 6 cards, so we had the scenario that everyone has what he wants to have in his opener. We factored in mulligans, but we always kept those cards. Out of 12 games, I was able to win exactly 1. Now tell me what 'a responsible player who knows the metagame and his deck' would conclude? He would conclude that there is no reliable way to fight the card and that it isn't worth packing anything against it in the board. He would conclude that he could only play the deck in a LotV-less metagame and that he would better play a different deck if the meta is full of LotVs (or Relics, or Wheels oS&M and stuff).
Manaless Dredge's match-up analysis is more 'cut and dry' than most other decks seeing play due in large part to its lack of interaction with an opponent. We need to know what deck(s) you were playing against to better understand your reasoning behind bailing out on a defensive strategy post-board.
Yes, you can. First off, you are completely forgetting that any board-based strategy using a transformational sideboard specifically geared towards a targeted archetype that could potentially support Leyline of the Void (or any other problematic strategy towards you) also grants you the opportunity to open up slots in the first sixty to circumvent your so-called 'Fifteen Land Strategy.' What you're failing to understand is that through your biased testing, you've basically defeated your own analysis by stating you've won games - which is a victory in itself - against Leyline based strategies which you would rather scoop to. Of course, there are countless configurations you could use in this instance, but yours seems to be based solely on the consensus of a poorer strategy using Forests (Dryad Arbors) and 'Silences.No, you simply can't. You play 0 lands main, which makes already 14-15 lands you'd have to have in your side in order to keep up with mana builds, so your plan already fails there. If you play say 11 lands and add 4 Chain of Vapor/Nature's claim, you're just at the same point as with the 11 Forests plus 4 Reverent Silence. Doesn't work, plus this plan is even worse than Forests plus Silence because it doesn't dodge Daze and Misstep. More discad outlets, which you mentioned, as well as the usual draw spells of a traditional build will never find room in the sb as well. Unles you play with a 27 card sideboard, which would after my calculations be the number you need in oder to fully transform your list (15 Lands, 8 discard Dorks, 4 Chain/Claim), and I haven't even factored in Careful Study and Breakthrough.
Also any player keeping Dazes in against this deck is making a very serious boarding error; to what extent does an opponent really need a Daze when the deck is completely non-interactive game one? Just because the deck is 'manaless' doesn't mean a deck packing conditional counter-magic is going to ravage it leading up to a Dread Return. This deck doesn't even care, and what makes it more entertaining is that any deck packing Daze and Leyline are going to be set back to a ridiculous extend in an attempt to mulligan aggressively for the Leyline, inherently warping - and potentially weakening - the deck's opening hand and making Daze that much worse. Cabal Therapy already does the dirty work, and even if an opponent Missteps it, that's two life down and a few Zombie tokens for you.
It doesn't care, nor should we.
No offense, but your calculations - which are practically nonexistent and seem 'buttered' - are hard to believe due to a series of heroic - however questionable - attempts to thwart a deployed strategy people are exploring using: no specific decks, mathematical probability or statistical analysis, and conclusion what you feel can be done to not necessarily (and effectively) defeat Leyline-based strategies, but rather 'give up' all together and call the deck a day.
A failure from my perspective.
Speaking of transformation, this is performing pretty well for me:
Free Beaters:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
Discard Outlets:
2 Phantasmagorian
Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
Graveyard Effects:
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below Draw Effects:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
Dread Return Targets:
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie
Sideboard:
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Barren Moor
The transformational plan is: -4 Narcomoeba, -4 Bridge from Below, -1 River Kelpie, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, -3 Golgari Grave-Troll, -2 Phantasmagorian, +1 Entire Sideboard
Regarding Rausch's deck construction: He had the perfect deck for that tournament, which is brilliant, but now people are packing more Leylines than ever before.
Oh come on Hollywood, you can't be serious.
Just so I can jump into that discussion: How would your transformational SB look like?
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I'm just saying I am trying to open your guys' minds up to the opportunity of at least trying to find a correct configuration to help the deck stave off 'auto-losses' - not a euphemism - which should never be acceptable in competitive Magic. I haven't found it yet, but I'm working trying to find it.
I'll accept the fact the deck cannot have a sideboard configuration setup to help against Leyline or similar strategies until I've thoroughly tested it, which I'm still in the process of doing. Until then, I'm not going to give up without trying.
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