As I said, this is really only when you already had a fetch in play.
There's the case where you want the shuffle for a post-Ad Nauseam Brainstorm for whatever reason. You can still get the shuffle out of a "fail to find", but then you miss out on the mana.Originally Posted by Jona
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Yeah, that could be relevant too. I've won a game by casting BS, IT just for shuffle, BS, IT just for shuffle and then Ponder finding the BW.
One doubt, merfolks look like less played than before and UWX blade decks look like very played moreover merfolks play dismember in main, What is better to play now 4 duress + 3 chants + 1 silence or 3 duress + 3 chants +2 xantids ??
This was discussed within the previous two pages. Read.
I've come to a startling conclusion. I updated Bryant's old lists because too many times Ad Nauseam was killing me. I'm telling you guys, try cutting Ad Nauseam and run Slithermuse and Plunge into Darkness. Much more consistent. Plus, Plunge dodges Misstep!
How much ganja have you smoked today?
This idea is extremely loose, and reminds me more of old-school Nausea decks than it does a refined machine that is modern Storm.
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I agree. I really hope you're joking.
Lord of the Chalice
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Hello all, I'm new to this site but not new to legacy. I've been paroozing around this forum and I love all the ideas that are being thrown around. Got some questions and ideas of my own to share.
In my searching, I didn't see mention of Eye of Nowhere. Is there a particular reason that I may have missed? seems good to me for a wishable bounce spell.
and I understand that thoughtseize hurts but In my year or so of running this list down below, it has helped a whole heck of a lot more than hurt.
I personally love the deck, and people have been trying to get me to "take the training wheels off" (lol) and switch to ANT but personally, I love a deck with answers and also asks the question "can you deal with this? no? kay i win"
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 ad nauseam
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 orim's chant
4 duress
1 thoughtseize
4 dark rit
4 rite of flame
2 undergroud sea
1 volcanic island
1 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
4 gemstone mine
3 city of brass
sb
3 xantid swarm
2 thoughtseize
1 grapeshot
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 Ill-gotten gains
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 eye of nowhere
1 diminishing returns
1 shattering spree
Ideas?
I've ran this deck at numerous Starcity events and done pretty well...highest i got was t16 though haha.
WTF?
I'm assuming you're talking about Burning Wish. I wouldn't call it training wheels, between having more cantrips and having to:
- make a good sideboard with relevant wish targets
- deciding when Empty the Warrens is actually gonna get there
- having alternate win conditions like Diminishing Returns
- having answers to MD hate like Gaddock
To me those Preordains look much easier to play with mate.
The whole 'training wheels' thing is a reference to quote in the video on page 110.
No no you misunderstand me I much prefer tes over ant. I was commenting on the video in the past page or two where they said that. I agree with you completely that this deck is much more complex and more fun to play with imo. Burning wish ftw.
More lands, but less 5c than Bryant's list.. well at least in the main. Interesting...
what are you losing to in the T16? looks pretty solid.
I would say the training wheels would be the +1 city of brass and -1 chrome mox, since you lose the explosiveness for the land (stability). how's that working out for you?
Yeah my list plays one more city and one less mox...and the extra duress and thoughtseize in my main are xantids in his...so pretty close. But what I was losing to was A) charbelcher winning the dice roll and B) a lil bad luck in the clutch round. But other than that its been good. I can't count the number of times I've gone against maindeck hate and eye of nowhere has been there for me. I've personally never killed with grapeshot cause anytime I could the other person would scoop before the grapeshot was even an idea in my head haha.
The land stability is eh. I've noticed that the extra land makes me draw a lot of lands, but then one time I hadto go off without a land. So its back and forth.
Hey Guys!
I know I have posted a few times here but I felt like I needed to interject about the "Training Wheels" comment. First off, I just finished building my version of TES and it is basically Bryant's list with a few changes in the board. I have been using Eye of Nowhere for one. Anyway, I just finished it off, it might get tweaked here and there, and it is such a fun deck to play. Moreover, the Burning Wishes, give you way more outs (which is generally accepted as good) for more complex and varying situations. It might just be my opinion and/or play style but I prefer this deck to ANT. I had done some serious play testing of both decks to figure out which one I want to ultimately build in real life. I found that TES had fewer blank draws, which again helps to win games. Those are just my two cents. Keep on Stormin'
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
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good deal man.
YES Tes is IMO better. has more answers, has more ways to win *cough* grapeshot for 27 *cough* lol. burning wish is house.
the whole "training wheels" comment is joking on what a commentator said in a live cast a few pages back, and I just like giving that guy crap about it cause in effect, playing TES is taking the training wheels off, not the other way around. ANT (in my personal opinion) is more straightforward, less answers to hate (especially game 1), and it takes more brains to pilot. Now on the other hand, ANT or any storm deck for that matter takes the brains and the knowledge of the deck to pilot, but I personally perfer TES over the other variants of the deck.
storm count = 26 grapeshot? you mad bro? lol
Eye of Nowhere has never been useful. It's for nothing but showboating, and I know about showboating...
I got to live the dream once. He had two lands in play, and I EoN, then Iggy, and EoN his other land.
Literally the only time I've ever cast it, but it was the nut.
I was really bored tonight, so I wrote up an analysis of a quick game (well, goldfish) for a local forum. None of it should be particularly revealing to anyone who already knows the deck, but I thought it would be useful to illustrate what you should be thinking about while playing storm. I'd love it if anyone would point out any mistakes I made or any flaws in my reasoning. In addition, if you think it's interesting I could try some more challenging games.
I’m going to attempt to copy Stephen Menendian’s idea for play-by-play analysis of interesting games. I’m really only experienced with storm decks, and at the moment I only have a 3 color version of TES on me. I’m also kind of bored, so here goes.
Since I have no other deck (or opponent, for that matter; I’m on vacation) I’m going to use the most boring opponent in the world: preboard Zoo. In particular, I’ll use a sample hand/draws from Dan Musser’s 2nd place Pittsburgh deck, since that was the first list I stumbled across. The game was actually more boring than you might expect in some respects, since I got an easy turn two kill. That said, I hope this will highlight a few of the interesting thought processes involved in playing storm.
My TES list is also a little odd. I’ve been fiddling with the manabase a bit to see if I can reasonably add a fourth color by playing a few rainbow lands, so there are currently three gemstone mines in the deck. It shouldn’t matter much. Anyways, here’s the list:
3C TES
Maindeck
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Gemstone Mine
Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
The Zoo deck can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=39909
Without further ado, let’s go to the game. Zoo won the roll and chose to go first. They opened the following hand:
Arid Mesa, Arid Mesa, Arid Mesa, Goblin Guide, Kird Ape, Path to Exile
Now, this is the one spot where my inexperience with zoo might have caused problems. This looks like a reasonable keep to me against an unknown opponent. It has some dudes (although not the biggest), perfect mana and a removal spell, so they kept.
TES opened this hand:
Duress, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish
This is an easy keep. Your mana is great, you have at least one protection spell (the wish can find another one as well) and you have the two best business spells you could ask for. Ad Nauseam is the cheapest business you can draw, which means you can play it faster and can more easily play disruption/cantrips on the same turn. If you draw a ritual, you can play it on turn 1, and otherwise you can certainly play it on turn 2. In addition, this hand can easily play a long game with duress/burning wish or dump a fast empty the warrens.
Turn 1 – Zoo
Zoo cracks an Arid Mesa for Taiga, plays Goblin Guide and swings. (I’m not sure if you should play Kird Ape here instead, but it doesn’t end up mattering. Both plays deal the same amount of damage long term, but kird ape first risks one less land. Guide first keeps storm a little lower on life, which makes Ad Nauseam slightly worse. It also seems like a better creature to expose to removal against an unknown opponent.) The guide reveals another Rite of Flame on top. The life totals are now 18-19.
TES
After drawing, TES’s hand is Rite, Rite, Mox, Ad Nauseam, Duress, Wish, Volc, Sea. What would you do? That’s kind of a trick question, since we can’t actually answer it until we have a plan. The first question you should ask is “how am I going to win?” The obvious answer is to cast Ad Nauseam. A quick check shows that we can’t. While we can get 5 mana, 4 of it is necessarily red. 5 mana is also to low for any other engines, such as Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains. This means that we want to set up for next turn.
On turn 2 we will get one more land (barring waste), so we can probably count on at least 6 mana, potentially including double black from the sea and mox. This means that we will almost certainly be able to play Ad Nauseam. That’s not necessarily a good choice, though. We will certainly be at 16, maybe 14 off another guide, or even lower if our opponent chooses to throw some burn at us. The worst case scenario would be double bolt and fireblast, which would put us to 6. That’s pretty unlikely if they’re playing zoo (which they probably are, given their start), but not unreasonable if they’re playing burn. From 13-16 life we would almost certainly win. At 10 it would be difficult, and we’d almost certainly die from 6. Are there other options? We could get a Diminishing Returns, either this turn or next turn, and play it next turn. This dodges the life issue handily, but is a little risky. Returns gives about a 70% chance to win in the best case scenario, and we’d probably be dead if we missed. In addition, it looks like we can’t actually get double blue next turn without a good topdeck. We’d need to use the volc to play our Rites, so we couldn’t even play Diminishing Returns. Ill-Gotten Gains won’t work either, since the wish will be exiled and we won’t have another tutor to get back. Finally, we could empty for at least 10, probably 12, next turn. Empty, however, is pretty bad against fast aggro decks. It looks like we’re stuck with Ad Nauseam.
So we play Sea into Duress, right? Wrong. While I’d love to duress away a burn spell and be sure our life total stays reasonably high, we actually need that duress for next turn. If we don’t draw a black card or petal, we’ll have to imprint duress on the mox in order to cast Ad Nauseam.
Finally, which land should we play? It only matters if we draw a better one or if our opponent plays wasteland. Realistically, there isn’t a better land. We’ll need red and black next turn anyways, so we can’t draw a better replacement. What if they play wasteland? It seems unlikely, but our opponent might have another guide plus a waste, or maybe several wastes. If that’s the case, we want to play the land we least care to lose or the land that will discourage them from wasting. We can get either color from the mox if necessary, but against zoo we’d much rather imprint the duress than the wish if push comes to shove. In addition, we will certainly need red to use these rites in our hand, so we should hold onto the volcanic.
All that thought, just to play Underground Sea and say go.
Turn 2 – Zoo
Zoo draws another Kird Ape, then plays Arid Mesa and swings with the Guide. TES reveals yet another Rite of Flame. Post combat, Zoo fetches a Plateau and plays both apes. Life is now 16-18.
TES
We draw the Rite of Flame. Is there any reason to change our plan? It doesn’t look like it. We still can’t play Diminishing Returns or use Ill-Gotten Gains. Empty the Warrens got better, since we can now play it for 14 (land, mox imprinting Ad Nauseam, Rite, Rite, Rite, Wish, Empty), but it’s still a bad plan against Zoo. Also, this is the best case scenario for our Ad Nauseam plan. We’re still at 16 and the only burn they can have is a Fireblast.
We have to play the volcanic, two rite of flames and the mox (imprinting duress). We could also play the wish and/or the third rite. Playing the wish is useless, since we don’t know what we need yet. The third rite probably doesn’t matter, but it is slightly better to hold it. We can always play it after Ad Nauseam with our one leftover red and there is a slim chance that we’ll want to infernal tutor for another one. (Note that I would play it if Zoo hadn’t cracked the second fetch, in case they were playing blue zoo with Daze.)
So we play Volcanic Island, Chrome Mox (imprinting Duress), Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Ad Nauseam. We’re left with rite and wish in hand, 1 red mana floating and no untapped mana. We’re at 16 life and storm is 4.
Whenever you Ad Nauseam, you should keep two things in mind. How low can my life total drop and what am I looking for. In this case, we have a five drop left in the deck (the second Ad Nauseam) so we’d like to stop before we hit 5. In addition, our opponent could have Fireblast, so we would ideally stop before 9. This may not be possible and I wouldn’t worry too much about stopping before 6 (when any two drop will put you into fireblast range). We also have access to a lot of red mana (4) and a wish, so we really only need a black mana source and some storm. Let’s flip!
Thoughtseize (15). Doesn’t help, so we go again. Dark Ritual (14). Good, but we can’t cast it yet. Duress (13). Still no good. Polluted Delta, Gemstone Mine, Swamp (13). Unless you haven’t made your land drop, lands don’t really change the equation. We can’t stop, but they’re free. Infernal Tutor (11). That’s doesn’t help us cast anything, but it might make some more storm. Dark Ritual (10). Also good. We’re actually guaranteed enough storm now if we find a black source, since we can play ritual, tutor for another ritual, ritual twice. Chrome Mox (10). Finally, we have a kill. After a quick double check, we stop flipping.
Now we can play mox (imprinting thoughtseize, since it’s the worst black card in our hand), ritual, duress (always check their hand if you can; it never hurts), rite of flame, infernal tutor for ritual, ritual, wish for tendrils, tendrils for 24. You can actually get a lot more storm than this by wishing for an IGG and/or some more tutors, but we’re already 6 over.
So there you have it. It was only two turns long, but there’s a lot to do. Keep in mind that all of this should be fairly automatic. Besides counting mana, I really only paused at all to see if I should play the duress on turn one. If you liked this, let me know and I’ll make another one. Next time I’ll try something more complicated than goldfishing Zoo. Also, if you see any mistakes or think there’s a better line of play, let me know.
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