How healthy is the format?

[Shawn]

Legacy is fine.

This. People will adjust.

I don't see Misstep going anywhere, as I heard Zac Hill say at GP:KC MM was made specifically to slow the format of Legacy down, and it seems to be doing just that.

[tsabo_tavoc]

6 NO RUG, 6 Stone UW, 2 Zoo are quite surprising, considering the status of these decks one month ago. However, I bet none of the mentioned archetypes will have over 4 T16 representations in the next SCG Open. I can also go on and say in another month, people will find themselves amusing, fearing the dominance of NO RUG or Stoneblade. Furthermore, Innistrad is coming and another shake-up is expected.

That said, the dominance of Mental Missteps is unquestionable. We knew this was coming when NPH was spoiled. This card has been banned in Modern, which makes it clear that WotC is aware of its performance in Legacy. I don't want see it banned though, because, clearly, everyone knows the most busted card in Legacy is BRAINSTORM!

Swamp is the loser in the most recent Top16. Why? Discard gets hit hard by Misstep, AND Brainstorm. Brainstorm brings RIDICULOUS consistency to blue decks, and blue combo decks. Ban Brianstorm, and then we can talk about colour balance in Legacy.

[Zunam]

"3 non-blue decks" being used as an argument that the format is fine is pretty bad. That's still a strong majority of blue.

It's still almost half of the top 8 and in the second case it is actually half of the top. What would be the correct number of non-blue decks in a top 8 to have a healthy format? Is it 6 is it 7 and who is defining that?

But yes you are right: Having just 3 non-blue decks in one top 8 is a bad argument but the same is true if just a single top 8 is presented as an argument for a non-healthy format.

But that was not my point. My point is: It is wrong to base a opinion on just a single top 8 and use it as an argument.

I for myself wouldn't be able to come to a conclusion. Not even if I would include the two other top 8ths that I mentioned.

[Jonathan Alexander]

There's no way they should ban Brainstorm. Legacy is fun because the decks are consistent and not every deck is like The Gate or Dragon Stompy and loses to itself three out of four games. Magic should be about skill and not about luck, and with Brainstorm, it's much more likely that games actually are decided by skill. Also, banning Brainstorm would most likely help combo decks more than anything else as these are the decks that have the biggest problems against blue based decks and often only need their cantrips to find certain pieces of their combos and not to generate virtual cardadvantage. Not having Brainstorm at least makes them weaker against discard though.

[GGoober]

Here is TomLaPille's reply:

TomLaPilleMagic Tom LaPille
I suggest Great Sable Stag or Thrun, the Last Troll

Does this make sense? putting Great Sable Stag in your deck to hose blue decks is like putting Lhurgoyf in your deck to hose Graveyard-based strategies. Like putting White Knight in your deck to fight Necropotence decks. It fights the wrong battle.

So I replied:

@TomLaPilleMagic They don't work, hosers should meddle with the opponent's gameplan. Thrun and GSS are just efficient lategame creatures.

And he replied me again:

I know a few Mistbind Cliques that would beg to differ with you about Great Sable Stag.

WOW!!

Does he even have any idea of the format or is he trolling you?

+10 to Misstep being the most format warping card since Goyf/Counterbalance/Pridemage/Hierarch/Progenitus. Sorry, Misstep warped the format much more than the cards mentioned.

Think about it this way, if MM is out, Goblins/combos are going to be viable again, AND SFM/NORUG decks won't be overly dominant because they won't have 8 free counters to protect their backup plan.

I love blue, I love MM, but I love Legacy more than blue/MM and all I can say, it is my opinion that Legacy with MM banned is a much healthier and diverse format than one with MM.

Brainstorm has never warped the format. It just gave blue a strong tool than the other color pie. Aside from Jace, blue has really not received any form of power inflation while most aggro decks have seen tremendous contributions to power creep. WotC has done a fine job in trying to push aggro against the dominant color that is blue, that is until they printed MM.

[tsabo_tavoc]

There's no way they should ban Brainstorm. Legacy is fun because the decks are consistent and not every deck is like The Gate or Dragon Stompy and loses to itself three out of four games. Magic should be about skill and not about luck, and with Brainstorm, it's much more likely that games actually are decided by skill. Also, banning Brainstorm would most likely help combo decks more than anything else as these are the decks that have the biggest problems against blue based decks and often only need their cantrips to find certain pieces of their combos and not to generate virtual cardadvantage. Not having Brainstorm at least makes them weaker against discard though.

I appreciate your point about Legacy being a format that values skill. Ponder and Preordain are decent cards that make decks consistent, and FAIR in the sense Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library are fair. However, Brainstorm is not a fair card, as it brings too much consistency: For one card and one mana, at instant speed, one gets three fresh cards from the top of your library, three versus one! Brainstorm is not only the core of any serious combo deck, but the MVP of most of them (Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Tendrils). Brainstorm not only digs cards for the combo decks, it works just as the way it is exploited by other blue decks. Banning Brainstorm and leaving Mental Missteps in will not do anything favouring combo decks.

Brainstorm supersedes the fairness of Legacy, and as Ponder and Preordain are available, it is a safe ban now. Blue decks will still be fairly consistent without Brainstorm. Blue players will whine (except those playing Islandwalkers) and learn to adapt to a fair format.

[KobeBryan]

I always advocated the banning of brainstorm. The banning would not kill blue where it would be unplayable. It would only nerf blue just a bit to allow other decks to catch up to its power.

But i was called a troll after making that suggestion.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I always advocated the banning of brainstorm. The banning would not kill blue where it would be unplayable. It would only nerf blue just a bit to allow other decks to catch up to its power.

But i was called a troll after making that suggestion.

People shouted "Ban Coutertop!", people creamed "Ban High Tide!", people yelled "Ban Show and Tell!", and now people are still amazed by the blue dominance with their hammer in the air, tempted to call a card that is not really blue.

We are the trolls who mention Brainstorm all the time.

[Pippin]

And here comes dr. Jones from the closet, right on time. Every few months same little story about how FoW is a free timewalk, it never gets old

This is when people are mostly cutting few copies of FoW, or playing something like NoFoW Bant and winning things...

Anyway the real problem here is Mental Misstep like already stated which gives too much tempo, and answers too many cards (Nacatl's, etc) without having the FoW drawback. It's easier to pay 2 life when one starts at 20 life than one paying 1 life and a blue card...

Personally I don't know what Wizards guys were smoking when they came up with Mental Misstep in card design... especially since it's not a "FoW substitute for Modern".

[menace13]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

Yes. Honestly, what is the problem with a blue dominance, when there are still around ten strong decks you can tune? Sure, NO RUG and Stoneblade stand above the other decks, but having two decks on top is perfectly fine in my eyes.
You should read Chapin's article from monday regarding a healthy metagame.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

Some of us - such as myself - find diversity awesome. Others obviously prefer one color over all the others. This lesson can be applied to real life as well as magic.

[Fry]

I personally don't think that there is anything wrong with a defined metagame... However with that being said I do believe that there is a problem when the metagame uses blue(8 free counters) in umpteen top 16 decks.

[CorpT]

WOW!!

Does he even have any idea of the format or is he trolling you?

Can someone do something about him? It is getting embarrassing how bad at magic he is.

Remember, he is the person who tested Reanimator in the MODO practice room and decided to ban Mystical Tutor and who thought NPH would fix Standard.

[KobeBryan]

Can someone do something about him? It is getting embarrassing how bad at magic he is.

Remember, he is the person who tested Reanimator in the MODO practice room and decided to ban Mystical Tutor and who thought NPH would fix Standard.

Too bad this isn't MTGSalvation where you can just ban someone for their opinions, reasoning that it is trolling.

[CorpT]

Too bad this isn't MTGSalvation where you can just ban someone for their opinions, reasoning that it is trolling.

Yeah, I hate those MTGSalvation mods. They're the worst. I often go to other boards just to complain about them.

[Richard Cheese]

Stop crying because Legacy finally has a defined metagame, it's no longer 40decks.format.

You should check out Standard. I hear it's pretty awesome to play the same 3 matchups all day at every major tournament.

[KobeBryan]

Yeah, I hate those MTGSalvation mods. They're the worst. I often go to other boards just to complain about them.

You are probably the best mod there.

[CorpT]

You are probably the best mod there.

Not even a mod there. But continue the nerd rage. It warms my heart.

[menace13]

You should check out Standard. I hear it's pretty awesome to play the same 3 matchups all day at every major tournament.

I'm fine with the same ten. So Legacy has a real metagame now and people still find something wrong. Last month it was ban Show and Tell this month it's ban Misstep, Mystic, Clique, Jace?