[Deck] Natural Order RUG

[jin]

The thing about Tarmogoyf is that it's really not as good as it used to be anymore. It gets stalled relatively easily and almost nobody plays sorceries anymore, aside from Green Sun's Zenith, which only touched the graveyard if it gets countered. A 3/4 for two mana might be good, but Terravore is rarely smaller than 4/4 and most of the time 6/6 or bigger.

ancestral vision, duress/thoughtseize, natural order, cabal therapy, dread return, life from the loam, chain lightning, show and tell to name a few sorceries that never see play.

terravore is worst early mid game.. which is where goyf is stronger.. late game is pointless because you have progenitus for that.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Ancestral Vision never resolves earlier than turn five. I don't see how that is not lategame. When Natural Order resolves pretty much usually neither Tarmogoyf nor Terravore matters. Against Dredge Terravore is also way stronger than Tarmogoyf, unless it's Manaless Dredge. When Life From The Loam is online, Terravore should also be way bigger than Tarmogoyf. And Chain Lightning actually does see little to no play.
Duress and Thoughtseize do see some play, right. But decks packing these are either Team America or Junk/Rock or combo. Against Team America Terravore is insanely strong because they can easily stall Tarmogoyf. Junk and Rock do also run Knight Of The Reliquary, which is one of the major reasons to include Terravore. Against combo Tarmogoyf is better, but who plays combo nowadays?

[jin]

Ancestral Vision never resolves earlier than turn five. I don't see how that is not lategame. When Natural Order resolves pretty much usually neither Tarmogoyf nor Terravore matters. Against Dredge Terravore is also way stronger than Tarmogoyf, unless it's Manaless Dredge. When Life From The Loam is online, Terravore should also be way bigger than Tarmogoyf. And Chain Lightning actually does see little to no play.
Duress and Thoughtseize do see some play, right. But decks packing these are either Team America or Junk/Rock or combo. Against Team America Terravore is insanely strong because they can easily stall Tarmogoyf. Junk and Rock do also run Knight Of The Reliquary, which is one of the major reasons to include Terravore. Against combo Tarmogoyf is better, but who plays combo nowadays?

You said sorceries aren't played in legacy. I just wanted to name a few that were played.

[HazMat]

I think I'm going to try siding in 3x painted servant and 1x Iona and see if it's effective

[Final Fortune]

I think I'm going to try siding in 3x painted servant and 1x Iona and see if it's effective

It's not, if they're targeting your NO plan post-board then the best thing you can do is SB out of it and into Jace the Mind Sculptor. Don't get fancy, just invalidate their hate and board in a strong, self sufficient strategy.

[Kellyx]

Hey guyes, ive got a question.
My meta is HEAVY uw stoneblade(modo).Like half of decks in daily events are uws.
How would you tune md/sb to fit such meta?

[Julian23]

@Kellyx:
Run 3 Grim Lavamancer and 4 Vendillion Clique in the main. Also, if your meta is actually FIFTY PERCENT (50%!) UW, run Ancient Grudge! 4 of them + 4 Red Blasts. Oh, and ofc Trygon Predator in the main.

Also, Pithing Needle helps alot vs. SFM, Batterskull and Jace. Although Jace shouldn't be an issue once NO resolves, so maybe more Red Blasts / Pyroblasts.

UW Stoneblade is - from my experience - a really good matchup for NO RUG.

[Muradin]

I am quite sure than overloading on artifact removal is not the way to go against UW stoneforge. Most of the lists tend to board out Stoneforge Mystic + their equipment package against us anyway, because everybody and his mother nowadays knows RUG Order packs Ancient Grudge in the board.

They bring in some Spell Pierce, Wrath of God, Elspeth and you'll be sitting there with your Ancient Grudges. Especially 4 seems to be way too much. I know most good players with the deck are boarding the way I stated above.

Here some lists to back this up:

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...7&iddeck=48618
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...4&iddeck=48346
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...7&iddeck=48624

They all got basically the same boarding plan against us. Seriously, try to resolve Sylvan Library or Jace, slowly whittle them down with your Mancers and Cliques (which you should indeed be running 3/4 or 3/3 depending on your meta imo) and force them to use their resources to handle your weak stuff. If you see the coast is clear with Clique or you amassed some counters proceed to crush them with Progenitus.

Btw, try to play slowly. I don't mean super slow, just take your time.

We can kill fast, they can't. If the score is 1-1 they'll pussy out and board back into their weaker equipment heavy configuration because otherwise they won't be able to finish the match. You don't want the draw for sure, but try to force them away from being the boring UW board control deck into being some kind of fish, which is a better matchup. It also makes your Grudges shine again. For me this worked very well so far and I haven't got 1 single draw out of the matchup yet.

[Muradin]

Doublepost

[Kellyx]

Do you play 3x mancers in main deck?:Z

[Muradin]

Do you play 3x mancers in main deck?:Z

Yes, indeed I do so. My metagame calls for it. People run GW Maverick, UW Stoneblade, Merfolk and the mirror, where Lavamancer is a good card. He is also quite good against Knight of the Reliquary decks, killing of their early Noble Hierarchs/Dryad Arbors/Mother of Runes/Dark Confidant/Stoneforge Mystic....
(Guess you can come up with creatures that can be killed with 2 dmg yourself...)

And he turns your burn into real removal against big creatures. Most of the time a bolt won't kill a knight, but a Lavamancer and a bolt sure will most of the time take her down without card disadvantage.

I also like it when my opponents can't play their Cliques because that little mage is sitting there, threatening to just maw them down.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

What did you cut for this? Mind posting your list?

[Kellyx]

Yeh im wondering as well=)
I guess you reduced goyf count to 1, or dont play jaces/lybraries

[catmint]

I don't get your logic Jona.

In your article you mention:

"What’s much harder to stop is an active Knight of the Reliquary. The current NO RUG lists really have no reliable way to beat it. After getting hit by two or more Wastelands you hardly do anything to stop a creature as big as Knight of the Reliquary".

Now you say you never lost a game to a wasteland?

I lost games to wastelands (merfolk, goblins and KoR Decks,...) and I think a wasteland paired with a MM or a removal for a mandork can set us back significantly enough to race us.

Now if you fetch basics, play mana dorks and FoW junky/GW disruption like gadock teeg, mindcensor or hymn you don't care about KoR. So if KoR is not relevant why devote spots to suboptimal creatures?

The argument that goyf is not that good anymore, because we dont play early sorceries is true though. One downside of replacing ponder with sylvan library. However usually my use of goyf is not to beatdown like zoo, but often more defensive to hold the ground while V-Clique delivers 3-4 dmg up in the air. And as a defensive creature goyf is much much more reliable and better that Terravore.

[Jonathan Alexander]

In tournament matches, I never lost to Wastelands. I should have said it this way, yeah. In testing I found that I usually don't care if I get hit by a naturally drawn Wasteland (or even two). I also noticed that it was sometimes hard to beat a turn two or three Knight Of The Reliquary, unless you have Natural Order before you get hit by three or four Wastelands in a row. Terravore not only discourages them from using Wastelands, it also naturally trumps Knight Of The Reliquary.
My point is that Wasteland, in a vacuum, and if naturally drawn is almost always irrelevant, unless backed up by some other serious disruption (Darkblast for example, or Fire // Ice). Getting hit by multiple Wastelands in the early game sucks, and Knight Of The Reliquary enables that. Since there's a lot of Maverick in Germany, I was looking for a solution for that. I found that Terravore not only beats Knight Of The Reliquary, but is generally a reasonably sized threat. In further testing I realised how strong Terravore is against other decks as well and thus I added the second one.

As for basics. Unless you manage to only draw your basic lands and fetches and have access to all three of your basics (plus a Noble Hierarch), you still open up yourself to Wasteland. Not to multiples, but you'll still get hit. If you have one of each of your duals and a Noble Hierarch, you can still cast all of your non-4CC spells after a Wasteland. With basics this might still be possible, but overall you're not as flexible as you were with duals. This is only my experience, though, and I don't think it's necessarily the right answer. I'm sure it's also a matter of playstyle, as I tend mulligan hands that lose to a single Wasteland in a game one scenario anyway. With basics, you're harder to manascrew, but you're easier to colourscrew. I'm more "worried" about the latter, thus I'm running more duals and fetches instead of basics.

[Krondo9]

what do you guys think about 1 ooze in the maindeck? I have been trying it lately and its sometimes great, sometimes iffy. obviously id rather draw a goyf most of the time, but i usually will, and as a green sun target, ooze is great as graveyard hate and anti-knight/anti-goyf/and even anti-terravore. it stops reanimator and gains you life vs. merfolk and zoo.

my only concern is it is sometimes too slow and might get killed before it gets to do any damage. however, not having to use any SB slots against graveyard is nice by just maindecking it. just wondering what you guys think. i could potentially cut my SB kitchen finks to put ooze on SB instead.

[Kellyx]

I would play 1 ooze instead 1 goyf in ANY meta.
Cuz he wins a lot of match ups on his own and he isnt worse than goyf in most non-gravyard based matches.

[Muradin]

I don't think Terravore is bad here, I am just not sure whether he can reliably beat KotR. Whenever I face Maverick and they can't lock me out of the game by using Wastelands their first target with KotR is usually Maze of Ith, which is a nice solution to Terravore considering we don't run Wasteland on our own.

And imo you should be running 1 Ooze maindeck. Its good considering it beats Goyf/Terravore/Tombstalker/Lavamancer/Knight of the Reliquary.... and most other creatures in a vacuum. Besides I've beaten Reanimator, Lands, Loam, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast and Elves sideboarding into Buried Alive + Vengevine with just the 1 Ooze I run. If you don't like him maindeck, at least do me the favor and run 1 in your board. He is better than Relic of Progenitus in this deck due to obvious reasons (your own goyfs, GSZ, can sac to Natural Order...)

By the way, I gave the lone Kitchen Finks some people are running in their board a try and its actually a really good card and for me definitely has done a lot in Zoo/Burn/Meerfolk/Goblins matchups. It works just so well with GSZ, Hierarch, Natural Order and Jitte. Its usually a tutorable that gives you 4 life in the process.

[Kellyx]

Dont you guyes find tarmogoyfs a bit..m...useless?
I dont know about other metas-but mtgo meta is UW/maverick/hive mind.
And tarmogoyf is sided out vs all of these 3 decks=/
I liked the idea of Jona to have just 1 for GSZ and replace other 3 slots.
Currently i use em as 1 ooze 1 jace 1 lavamancer

[nyoro]

Do people seriously just suggest a singleton terravore over a tarmogoyf in NO RUG?

the biggest difference between tarmogoyf and terravore is their casting cost. 1G vs. 1GG makes a game changing scenario especially in a fast and disruptive format like legacy.

Reid Duke's article also talks about why this kind of suggestion is usually suboptimal. When it comes to NO RUG, I will listen to him. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Order_RUG.html