[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[crovakiet]

I like the Vedalken Shackles as well as a 1 of. Ensnaring bridge handles all the 'too big' power creatures cheated in by reanimator/show&tell/NO. Shackles steal the rest.

[sdematt]

Any thoughts on this deck at the moment? I know this deck basically "evolved" into Stoneblade, but I think there's still some potential. I think we really have to be able to deal with SFM and Jace in the early game, and then grind out the long game with lock pieces. Once Thopter Foundry + Sword is up, Stoneblade can't win. Batterskull can't get through, neither can Clique, etc. Plus, we can attack their Jace.

But, I don't agree with the half-assed SFM plan of our own. We play less counterspells, less removal, and we've not all-in on that plan anyway. We're almost attempting to play that game better, but we're not as good, so I'm thinking cut that plan from the deck, as it just isn't worth it.

I think Torpor Orb deserves a slot somewhere to basically stop Stoneblade from performing Clique and SFM shenanigans in the long game, and Counterbalance should help us grind out and win the counter war.

Thoughts for anyone still playing the deck?

-Matt

[Justin]

I think the problem with this deck is that it is extremely tight. It doesn't have a lot of flex spots left over after putting in all the core cards. It runs a toolbox of Enlightened Tutor targets, typical countermagic, removal, and two different combos.

I think this deck has been hurt by the printing of Mental Misstep. Yes, I realize that it can run Mental Misstep itself, but MM doesn't fit into this deck as seemlessly as it does Stoneblade and others. When opponents are playing Mental Misstep, it makes it that much harder to resolve Top. Before MM, you could pretty reliably resolve it on turn one, especially when on the play. MM also hits Enlightened Tutor, a key card of the deck. If CounterTop is unable to cast those spells reliably, it is going to suffer. I think control players have opted for UW Stoneblade, Landstill or decks that they find it easier to fit in their MMs and Jaces.

[sdematt]

You can easily fit it all in, but you do have to make some sacrifices. Sure MM ruins your plans sometimes, but that's why you run MM of your own, and rawdog E Tutor when possible. It's like any backbreaking 1-drop play: sometimes they'll have it, other times they just won't.

My list thus far is as follows:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
23

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Shackles/Control piece
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

You're running a ton of basics, and many answers to SFM. Swords, Spell Snare, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Thopter Foundry Combo and Force all deal with big threats. I'm thinking about running another 4 drop so I can reliably counter Jace into the late game.

Again, you basically try to either drop a quick lockpiece and hold the game until you can either set-up Counterbalance/Top or Jace, or you go for quick combo. Counterbalance lock allows you to counter mid game Ancestral Visions, further SFM, etc. Tons of value since they can't counter the triggers.

The only problem is actually doing all of this. Reliably locking up the early game so we can actually get TO the late game is the main problem. Like you said, having two engines and being a slow deck really sucks.

Out of the board though, you hopefully try to wreck up the board with Humility, or go for the long haul with Blood moons, Blasts, and Humility.

-Matt

[Justin]

Well the four Spell Snare certainly helps against SFM. I would argue that you want to run a full set of Top. I've found that Top is the MVP of this deck. The deck will win a majority of the time against opposing decks if you can resolve a quick top. I also have to question 3 foundrys and 2 swords. I think you could probably cut one of each and devote those slots to either enlarging your toolbox or adding more Top and Counterbalance. I'm also not sure if you need two Ensnaring Bridge, although it is awesome against SFM decks and aggro in general.

[sdematt]

You also want to reliably hit combo without having to dig too much for it, is my thing. Also, they add to your 2-drops for your CB curve.

Bridge wins SO many games, and with Moat, it means nothing in Stoneblade can get through (if Batterskull is equipped to anything, you'll have less cards than that creature's power). Only Manlands sometimes slip through. It hoses Merfolk, since their own Lords hose them. Stops Progenitus, Emrakul, most Goyfs, Knights, Thrun, etc.

Once you can get Thopter Combo online, Stoneblade can't beat it, NO RUG can't beat it, Zoo, etc. Unless they actually combo off, nothing can sit there and beat Thopter combo. An active Emrakul is beaten by 7 Thopter tokens.

-Matt

[GGoober]

You can easily fit it all in, but you do have to make some sacrifices. Sure MM ruins your plans sometimes, but that's why you run MM of your own, and rawdog E Tutor when possible. It's like any backbreaking 1-drop play: sometimes they'll have it, other times they just won't.

My list thus far is as follows:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
23

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Shackles/Control piece
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

You're running a ton of basics, and many answers to SFM. Swords, Spell Snare, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Thopter Foundry Combo and Force all deal with big threats. I'm thinking about running another 4 drop so I can reliably counter Jace into the late game.

Again, you basically try to either drop a quick lockpiece and hold the game until you can either set-up Counterbalance/Top or Jace, or you go for quick combo. Counterbalance lock allows you to counter mid game Ancestral Visions, further SFM, etc. Tons of value since they can't counter the triggers.

The only problem is actually doing all of this. Reliably locking up the early game so we can actually get TO the late game is the main problem. Like you said, having two engines and being a slow deck really sucks.

Out of the board though, you hopefully try to wreck up the board with Humility, or go for the long haul with Blood moons, Blasts, and Humility.

-Matt

I disagree MM ruins counterthopter lists. It obviously will ruin lists that are bent on winning on the back of Countertop, but in your list, and many other recently developed list, you are actually fine with MM hitting your SDT since you are playing basically the same control deck as any other deck would, except having 4-6 slots dedicated to the thopter combo (which is great in plentiful of matchups).

And yes, Ensnaring Bridge is brutal :) They need Grips to truly deal with it, otherwise you are accumulating cards to protect Bridge and your combo so outside of Grips, they can't do anything abuot it. I like Bridge better than Moat (Tombstalkers/Emrakul/Spellstutter Sprite/Clique are all the more popular these days(.

[sdematt]

Sure MM ruins your plans sometimes

I never said it ruined the deck, just sometimes it's brutal to have a crucial E. Tutor easily countered with a Mental Misstep.

Metal, since you probably have more time than me (maybe), would you mind maybe running my list and tell me what you think?



-Matt

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So, exactly how good is Blood Moon? Is it really that good against the meta? I mean, I don't have a huge fear of Wasteland, and I run fetches...I'm just a little cautious to just auto-include something that isn't a huge house against my bad matchups. It looks good paired with Torpor Orb and maybe Revokers all in the board. That's a real hose paired with CB. Also, I'm trying something a little unorthodox right now, but I don't want to unveil it quite yet (the cards for the effort are eluding me, and I want to test before I post it, so I don't look like a n00b). Is there a Planeswalker other than Jace to use? I just hate all the Jace Wars and was wondering if there is another planeswalker that might be an acceptable choice. I think Koth + Blood Moon and a few more non-basics might be pretty decent...I dunno. Probably just stick with the Jaces, but I keep mine in the board. Sounds stupid, but I don't really even need them most of the time. I prefer the combo kill and the business instead of wasting a turn to drop a 4cc brainstorm...

Thanks for your answers, this looks like it might become my next signature deck (just left ANT and varients for good, even sold the LED's...:(

-ABC

[sdematt]

There's definitely a super card that me and my team are testing. In theory, it's super good against cards with card advantage. Is that the one you're talking about, Bee?

If it is, I don't think we can reliably run it, because we want card advantage, too.

Blood Moon is super good as Stoneblade can't reliably hit their White sources (they rely on fetches to get them), Team America dies in a fire with White America, slows down combo/Hive Mind if fast enough, and is just a general fuck-over card to so many decks if they get greedy and don't fetch basics. One of the reasons to run Red is Blood Moon and REB, so since you're in it for REB, might as well run Moon as well.

I'm thinking the Abyss is really good in theory, but is a damn pain in the ass to: A) cast, b) Be relevant. I mean, Stoneblade can't reliably win through it in the early game unless they pop a ton of creatures at once. It's a tough decision.

Another Planeswalker I tried for a while was Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. If you're running enough artifacts, you can run Mox Opals and artifact lands. Once you get 15-20 artifacts, he's VERY good. He can win out of nowhere. He gives you an insta-win condition under Moat/Humility lock that's faster than Jace.

-Matt

[sdematt]

There's definitely a super card that me and my team are testing. In theory, it's super good against cards with card advantage. Is that the one you're talking about, Bee?

If it is, I don't think we can reliably run it, because we want card advantage, too.

Blood Moon is super good as Stoneblade can't reliably hit their White sources (they rely on fetches to get them), Team America dies in a fire with White America, slows down combo/Hive Mind if fast enough, and is just a general fuck-over card to so many decks if they get greedy and don't fetch basics. One of the reasons to run Red is Blood Moon and REB, so since you're in it for REB, might as well run Moon as well.

I'm thinking the Abyss is really good in theory, but is a damn pain in the ass to: A) cast, b) Be relevant. I mean, Stoneblade can't reliably win through it in the early game unless they pop a ton of creatures at once. It's a tough decision.

Another Planeswalker I tried for a while was Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. If you're running enough artifacts, you can run Mox Opals and artifact lands. Once you get 15-20 artifacts, he's VERY good. He can win out of nowhere. He gives you an insta-win condition under Moat/Humility lock that's faster than Jace.

-Matt

[Morgothian]

In my opinion, the Stoneforge plan to tutor is perfect, even though is still possible to try playing a non-stoneforge build. I won another tournament in Verona (64 players) last sunday with this list:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Seat of Synod
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Batterskull
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Firespout
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Humility

Sideboard

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
1 Wrath of God
1 Cursed Totem
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Energy Flux

Firespout is too storng in this meta, it gets rid of Merfolk, MAverick and kills virtually all the critters of RUG ORder. Moreover, I tested against the Order-Rebirth combo and went 7-3. Humility is superior to Moat and synergic with Firespout.

A non-Stoneforge build will have -3 Stoneforge -1 Batterskull +1 Thopter Foundry +1 Sword of the Meek +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Is also possible to cut the 2nd Sword of the Meek for a 3rd copy of Enlightened Tutor.

[sdematt]

Thoughts on this, Morgothian?

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
5 Islands
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Academy Ruins
23

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I think I'll definitely try the Firespouts, especially with Humility. I've been finding Spell Snare pretty hot, though, especially since my CB curve is a bit low on 2's.

Also, what matchups did you face? Want to do a tournament report? :)

-Matt

[eluvial]

I like your new list Morgothian but 21 lands seems very light. Maybe I am drawing bad but I am finding even 22 to not be enough and thinking 23 is the way to go.

[sdematt]

In control decks, I usually play 23-24 lands. It's served me well.

-Matt

[eluvial]

Here is a list that has been having some success on Magic Online. I love the Dark Confidants in the board but the counterbalance curve looks terrible.

1: 20
2: 7
3: 2
4: 3
5: 4


1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
23 lands

0 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mental Misstep
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
37 other spells


Sideboard
3 Dark Confidant
1 Energy Flux
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Peacekeeper
2 Perish
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vendilion Clique

[DragoFireheart]

This deck needs to drop the CounterTop combo. Granted, it'll be a new deck, but the combination isn't that great anymore. Between MM and Vials, it just doesn't work as well as in the past.

[sdematt]

It's actually super greasy in the late game. It's never great in the early game, but grinding out the long game, it's so good. Stoneblade can't counter it, and bitches cry when it's online. :)

-Matt

[sdematt]

I've reworked my list to have a bit more early game...game. I've adjusted Morgothian's manabase to a not-so-greedy 23 lands, and I'm playing both SFM and the Thopter combo, with multiple lockpieces. Ideally, you want to combo, but you can always just grind Batterskull. I've lowered the "reliance" on CounterTop, with online one in the main, and one in the board. It's not good in the early game, and only comes alive later on.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

BOARD

1 Counterbalance
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat/lockpiece

-Matt

[eluvial]

Why 1x Underground Sea? Seems kinda loose just for Explosives. I run a tropical in that spot for ancient grudge and the occasional firespout.