Holy shit. I just played 10 games vs NO RUG on mws vs my friend, and he crushed me 10-0! This MU seems almost unwinable. Between Bolt, Fire/Ice, Lavamancer, Misstep + Jitte from the board, there is just not much you can do. My board plan was even to bring in my own Jittes, but that plan doesn't work at all. Does anybody have any ideas to beat this MU?
Btw, I have always been an advocate of Gaea's Cradle, but that card is just terrible at the moment, because of Misstep. You always wanna have 2 mana on turn two, and if they Misstep your 1-drop and Cradle is your only other land, you are pretty screwed. I know they could do that before as well with spot removal, but that didn't cause tempo loss and people were hesitant to waste removal on Llanowar, etc. It's even worse if they have Misstep + Wasteland!
Elves was a nice tier 1.5 - 2 deck pre Misstep. Now, there is just not much you can do.
Heavy blue control/aggro control metagame is not a lot of fun.
It won't get better with snapcaster mage recuring removal and MM....
I never used Gaea's Cradle in my elf deck, although play 10 basic lands; elves can generate enough mana.Originally Posted by Sigar
I would like to see your deck list... I'll post mine later. I have not played against NO RUG at this moment so I'm not going to pretend I know how to beat NO RUG but I would like to know the main MM target that screwed you.
:)
Well, the buried alive/vengevine package should help there, (also in zenith builds well... zenith is pretty good there), and if that's out of your budget then maybe Steely Resolve could help against any deck with a lot of targeted removal (this does negate your symbiote as you can't target an elf to use the ability)
I tested a lot against NORug and found it rather easy. Except if they can go NO-Progenitus on T3. I do play an Elvish Champion MD to just run them over with unblockable guys.
About Cradle: I play 2 MD but never ever play it before there are 2 elves on the board. Your opponent will let the second creature resolve a lot of the times just because they think you don't have a second land. Then you land the cradle and they will weep. But post the list, then we can comment in a more targetted way
Last edited by Darklingske; 09-13-2011 at 09:33 AM. Reason: not finished the text
I don't really need tips from people who say the worst MU for elves is "rather easy". Elvish Champion is not gonna change anything in that MU. About your cute little Cradle comment, they kill or counter your first creature, which shuts down Cradle and makes it bad cause you can't cast Visionary on turn 2, unless you have a 3rd land which is very rare, since you should run 19-20 lands tops! So it's not like you can hold Cradle in your hand and pretend everything is fine. You need 2 mana on turn two and Cradle doesn't support that very well, especially against NO RUG (and other Misstep decks with removal).
I already run Intuition > Vengevine, but Scavenging Ooze makes that plan a joke, since they can slow you down enough with Fire/Ice, Lavaman, Bolts, Misstep and FoW. Zenith is a fine card, but it doesn't do anything great in that MU. It's just a sweet card overall.
Sorry for being harsh, but both posts were rather useless, and I really hope Steely Resolve was a joke..
If you don't believe me, I will gladly crush you with NO RUG on mws ;D
I play mirror entity elves not glimpse elves but RUG is also not the most baller matchup for me either. I run 4 misstep mainboard and its been awesome so far to stop exactly what i need it to swords, bolts, lavamancers and missteps. Idk if theres room in your guys' deck but its been phenominal in mine. I also run a spellskite and a stoneforge package out of the board to compensate for getting 2/1'd with fire. I have chord of callings so I only need one.
Protip: if you are playing blue Ive tested 3 envelop in my sb for perish/firespout/show and tell/natural order/infernal tutor? and its been great too.
The worst MU for elves is BUGstill. And if you don't want any comment, then don't post or ask for advice. In the event of countering the first Elf, then yes, cradle is bad. But not every opponent will do this. Read what I wrote, before commenting like a ***.
Yeye, the old "don't comment before you read my post" isn't gonna work (like it ever did). I read every single word you said, and responded to them. It's useless to talk about dream scenarios and your opponent making choices in your favor. The worst MU for Elves is not BUG if you run Vengevine + Tutor, which you should. Cards like Lavaman, Fire/Ice and Jitte are much worse than anything BUG can throw at you. I never said I don't want ANY comments.
If you want to play combo elves, you cannot run chaff like Mental Misstep. You don't want to play reactive cards or have dead draws mid-combo. Envelop is truly a sweet card, but I would never run counter magic in combo elves.
Until they ban Mental Misstep, combo elves will never be tier 1 :(
Yeye, the old "don't comment before you read my post" isn't gonna work (like it ever did). I read every single word you said, and responded to them. It's useless to talk about dream scenarios and your opponent making choices in your favor. The worst MU for Elves is not BUG if you run Vengevine + Tutor, which you should. Cards like Lavaman, Fire/Ice and Jitte are much worse than anything BUG can throw at you. I never said I don't want ANY comments.
If you want to play combo elves, you cannot run chaff like Mental Misstep. You don't want to play reactive cards or have dead draws mid-combo. Envelop is truly a sweet card, but I would never run counter magic in combo elves.
Until they ban Mental Misstep, combo elves will never be tier 1 :(
Thats fair. If anybody wants it this is the Mirror Entity elves list Ive been running.
7 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
18 lands
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Mirror Entity
4 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
32 creatures
4 Mental Misstep
2 Chord of Calling
4 Green Sun's Zenith
10 spells
Sideboard
3 Envelop
3 Krosan Grip
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Duplicant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Spellskite
Hi, disagree on just about everything.
I've played NO RUG about 5 times now and my record is 4-1 o.o
You're on the "If they have the nuts on the play AND you kept a subpar hand AND you didnt draw land 3 AND they know what they're doing" mindset.
You have issues having 3 lands in your hand by turn 3? Here's an idea. Cut a ranger for a forest. I've been contemplating this for a while and i feel its correct.
Obviously jitte is a beating, but its literally 1-2 cards in their entire deck.
I've never had an issue with 1-2 missteps in the oponnents opening hand. 3rd one is where you start getting frustrated.
They also only have 1-2 ooze in their deck.
If you resolve inutition it will literally eat them alive.
Also remember NO RUG is 1 deck. There are 15 other decks that are viable that a good matchups.
PS: Cradle is nuts.
PSS:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh no.
Draw vengevine.
That is all.
@TheBirdMan:
Cool list, but why 2 Ezuri and 2 Mirror Entity? Wouldn't 2 more Chord of Calling be better?
Spell Pierce seems much stronger in that case too. Both have an awesome surprise value, but Spell Pierce also counters Intuition, Hive Mind, Grim Monolith, StP, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will, most of the time.
If you're using Envelope to prevent a blowout past turn 6, then it hardly matters that you even have the counter - you shouldn't be playing into a sweeper regardless.
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Its mainly for perish on turn 5-6
and this deck still wont be good enough *giggle*
Mental misstep banned! maybe joraga warrcaller a good idea now in some
more aggro-oriented lists?
juhuu... elves are back from Tier 3 to tier 2! =)
I think our sucess will depend on how strong CB top will be and how many Plague, EE, Perish and Firespout will be around. Storm combo will still be an issue, so I am curious how many people bring out the LED again. :)
So basically the same issues as before MM. :) Looking forward to come back to the old discussion as soon as we show some T8 results... ?!Ross' 4 cradles, Vengevines, Living Wish, Pact, GSZ and so on?! ...:)
I am also looking forward to playing this deck again. Glimpse now only has to worry about Force, lol.
@Astrix: I've been playing 1x Joraga Warcaller in my list for a really long time. I play it in place of Elvish Archdruid #4. I like the aggro potential quite a bit, as the fundamental aggro turn is only a turn later than the combo turn (turn 4 typically rather than turn 3.)
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I think misstep returning hurts this deck. Counterbalance and ritual combo should increase in number while stoneforge and NO rug should decrease. This can only be bad for elves. I have had a ton of success playing combo elves for the past couple months, and expect that my win percentage will be lower now.
Having said that, if zoo is the biggest beneficiary of this change, then elves might end up being fine, as that is another easy matchup.
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