All B/R update speculation.

[Julian23]

I think Avatar of Shadow's post misses the difference between the established terms "Card Advantage", "Virtual Card Advantage", "Card Quality / Card Selection". Calling someone out for not sticking to your interpretation of what these terms mean in competitive gaming doesn't help it.

We get what you mean, but you're at best talking about Virtual CA, surely not pure CA. Although it's neither of those but just Card Disadvantage+Card Selection.

[JustPAT4]

The term card advantage means you have an advantage with the cards in your hand over your opponents. With a card that dig three deep, able to swap your junk from your hand ans shuffle it away, you don't think that is card advantage?

It certainly hell means card advantage to me, when you get to dump 3 cards with different ones.

Even bazaar of baghdad is card advantage...draw 2 discard 3.

If you think card advantage is only the ability to get more cards in your hand, you need to revise your definition in your book.

I'm not sure where you got that definition from, but if that's how you define CA, then undeniably Brainstorm fits the bill.

However, here's the classic, traditionally agreed upon example: Ancestral Recall is said to have +2 CA, its caster gains 3 cards while losing Recall itself. Therefore, Brainstorm has +0 CA.

Considering that this is the way Card Advantage has been understood since Beta, I think that you ought to be more measured in your criticism of well established ideas.

And don't be absurd about Bazaar of Baghdad. Draw 2 discard 3 is -1 CA. You're talking about something entirely different.

If you think card advantage is otherwise, you need to read the book.

[kiblast]

There is this concept called card quality. Brainstorm provides better cards. Not more cards. Just better ones in relation to the gamestate.

[JustPAT4]

There is this concept called card quality. Brainstorm provides better cards. Not more cards. Just better ones in relation to the gamestate.

Which is what I was trying to establish in order to create a working vocabulary going ahead before I was treated like an idiotic child for doing so.

Card Quality/Selection is what Brainstorm does better than any other card in the format.

I'm of the opinion that Brainstorm is the strongest card still legal in legacy for this reason. And I'm of the opinion that the best way to answer the aforementioned strongest card in legacy is Mental Misstep. I wouldn't see either banned. And if you're afraid of Brainstorm, you certainly don't want Misstep banned. Well I don't anyway.

My work here is done. I have contributed nothing but another hopeful tear into the endless ocean of unsubstantiated legacy speculation.

Cheers all.

[GGoober]

I'm calling this, if Brainstorm is indeed banned or has the potential on going to the banlist, I would just want everyone to start thinking about how many Sensei's Top would be played in replacement to Brainstorm. Sure it's no Brainstorm because for that one crucial turn it is in fact card disadvantage, however, it will be as close to functioning as Brainstorm (it even fights discard well when you can always ensure that you draw the card to play on your turn so discard can never molest your hand).

I would just want everyone to look at the poll for this thread, and remember that Top was a huge whine back in the day. If Brainstorm is banned, Top will definitely see more play, if not more because it's available in all colors. Top is already underplayed because of MM in the format. Brainstorm isn't, because the decks playing Brainstorm so happens to play MM. If people still feel Brainstorm is the issue, then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion. But banning Brainstorm doesn't solve anything. Blue will be fairly neutered, but Top is available as an alternative (I personally enjoy 2-3 Tops in control anyway even if not palying Countertop). And blue will still have MM, and we will end up whining about Top and MM all over again, except that a big portion of Legacy players might quit Legacy over the rage if Brainstorm is banned (not because they have a bromance with Brainstorm, but Brainstorm has been always around for years and is powerful, but still a fair card).

If you can knock an argument for banning Brainstorm, you can knock an argument for Ponder, Top, Ancestral Visions (trust me, you will be able to because it's the same fucking argument for any of these cards, which was the big frustration on the restriction of BOTH Brainstorm and Ponder which many Vintage vets agreed or disagreed upon even up to today).

All I'm hoping WotC isn't a n00b. I personally would like seeing MM go, but I would like to see more unbannings even if MM is still around if they decide to ban MM.

Something tells me that B&R might ban brainstorm over Mental Misstep because Brainstorm is actually relevant against Great Sable Stag when digging up that lightning bolt whereas MM does nothing in their online testing sessions.

[dahcmai]

Sooooo, $10 says that Land Tax stays on the list despite the silliness of it.

[KobeBryan]

I really want to see an unban of mind twist. It really wouldn't do anything in this format anyways.

[(nameless one)]

Sooooo, $10 says that Land Tax stays on the list despite the silliness of it.

It's funny because we've all been speculating about Land Tax leaving that list since 2008 yet it has yet to happen.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sooooo, $10 says that Land Tax stays on the list despite the silliness of it.

God I wish they would unban it this time. I just picked up 3 Legends ones in NM condition for $12 each as store credit and I would love to ship them at double that and never have to look at them again.

[Malchar]

Sensei's Divining Top is what I voted for at the time of the poll, and it's still the only card that I think should be banned, if any. It's like a reusable brainstorm in any color, and it protects itself. Plus, it's a huge time-waster, and it can basically go in any deck archetype, since everyone likes having card selection. It's also stupidly good with counterbalance (back at the time of the poll) or fetchlands. Now that mental misstep has become popular, I think that it serves as an adequate answer to sensei top, which previously required a force of will to stop if cast on the play. If anything, more "threats" should be unbanned, namely black vise or land tax, since mental misstep seems to supply an overabundance of "answers".

[Lemnear]

No one thinks maybe they will ban Jace and not misstep ?

Because it really is the most ridiculous card they printed since the Urza block madness (well, maybe there's skullclamp, maybe not), and, unlike misstep, it's really a pure blue card, that provides everything you can dream of for 2UU and is extremely difficult to kill

Wow! Ignoring Crucible of Worlds, Trinishpere, Aether vial, Gush, Bob, Gifts ungiven, Storm cards, T4K, counterbalance, Top, Jitte, nacatl, knight of the reliquary, standstill and dozens of meta defining cards more make this post a complete joke

[Lemnear]

I'm calling this, if Brainstorm is indeed banned or has the potential on going to the banlist, I would just want everyone to start thinking about how many Sensei's Top would be played in replacement to Brainstorm. Sure it's no Brainstorm because for that one crucial turn it is in fact card disadvantage, however, it will be as close to functioning as Brainstorm (it even fights discard well when you can always ensure that you draw the card to play on your turn so discard can never molest your hand).

I would just want everyone to look at the poll for this thread, and remember that Top was a huge whine back in the day. If Brainstorm is banned, Top will definitely see more play, if not more because it's available in all colors. Top is already underplayed because of MM in the format. Brainstorm isn't, because the decks playing Brainstorm so happens to play MM. If people still feel Brainstorm is the issue, then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion. But banning Brainstorm doesn't solve anything. Blue will be fairly neutered, but Top is available as an alternative (I personally enjoy 2-3 Tops in control anyway even if not palying Countertop). And blue will still have MM, and we will end up whining about Top and MM all over again, except that a big portion of Legacy players might quit Legacy over the rage if Brainstorm is banned (not because they have a bromance with Brainstorm, but Brainstorm has been always around for years and is powerful, but still a fair card).

If you can knock an argument for banning Brainstorm, you can knock an argument for Ponder, Top, Ancestral Visions (trust me, you will be able to because it's the same fucking argument for any of these cards, which was the big frustration on the restriction of BOTH Brainstorm and Ponder which many Vintage vets agreed or disagreed upon even up to today).

All I'm hoping WotC isn't a n00b. I personally would like seeing MM go, but I would like to see more unbannings even if MM is still around if they decide to ban MM.

Something tells me that B&R might ban brainstorm over Mental Misstep because Brainstorm is actually relevant against Great Sable Stag when digging up that lightning bolt whereas MM does nothing in their online testing sessions.

+1 my fellow TMD friend

[death]

I think banning Brainstorm will create chaos, I imagine non-blue combo decks running rampant and U/x control being ill-equipped and unable to catch-up.
The meta was fine before Mental Misstep, Jace TMS is fine and is not worth banning. Brainstorm + Force of Will is what keeps the format in check.

If there will be changes I predict it will either be MM or Stoneforge or both axed.

Earthcraft is about time to get unbanned, but not Land Tax and not Black Vise.

[Gheizen64]

I'm calling this, if Brainstorm is indeed banned or has the potential on going to the banlist, I would just want everyone to start thinking about how many Sensei's Top would be played in replacement to Brainstorm. Sure it's no Brainstorm because for that one crucial turn it is in fact card disadvantage, however, it will be as close to functioning as Brainstorm (it even fights discard well when you can always ensure that you draw the card to play on your turn so discard can never molest your hand).

I would just want everyone to look at the poll for this thread, and remember that Top was a huge whine back in the day. If Brainstorm is banned, Top will definitely see more play, if not more because it's available in all colors. Top is already underplayed because of MM in the format. Brainstorm isn't, because the decks playing Brainstorm so happens to play MM. If people still feel Brainstorm is the issue, then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion. But banning Brainstorm doesn't solve anything. Blue will be fairly neutered, but Top is available as an alternative (I personally enjoy 2-3 Tops in control anyway even if not palying Countertop). And blue will still have MM, and we will end up whining about Top and MM all over again, except that a big portion of Legacy players might quit Legacy over the rage if Brainstorm is banned (not because they have a bromance with Brainstorm, but Brainstorm has been always around for years and is powerful, but still a fair card).

If you can knock an argument for banning Brainstorm, you can knock an argument for Ponder, Top, Ancestral Visions (trust me, you will be able to because it's the same fucking argument for any of these cards, which was the big frustration on the restriction of BOTH Brainstorm and Ponder which many Vintage vets agreed or disagreed upon even up to today).

All I'm hoping WotC isn't a n00b. I personally would like seeing MM go, but I would like to see more unbannings even if MM is still around if they decide to ban MM.

Something tells me that B&R might ban brainstorm over Mental Misstep because Brainstorm is actually relevant against Great Sable Stag when digging up that lightning bolt whereas MM does nothing in their online testing sessions.

The fact top isn't played in non-blue decks when everyone could do so says a lot about that card's power. Top was actually almost never played outside of countertop even when it was considered for this poll. It could see some more play with brainstorm banned, but i suspect most blue decks will prefer Preordain or Opt and other library manipulation before top.

I find funny you pre-emptively complain about a card that's already legal and see no play saying that banning Brainstorm would make it ubiquitous. Wouldn't that be a point more for banning Brainstorm? I mean, the card is so good is preventing a potentially ubiquitous card from being played. Except it's not since even decks that can't play brainstorm don't play Top.

The argument about banning Brainstorm isn't the same as the argument of banning Ponder or Top or anything. If you had followed the debate, you would have known 1 million people already said this before you. The argument is that Brainstorm power level is the problem, not what it do. Because if blue's dominance is a problem, then the culprit is Brainstorm much more than MM. Still, people are hating on MM.
Ponder and Top aren't comparable to BS even if they do similar things.

Finally, your point about "it has been played for years so it's fair" it's a non-argument. Can we get non-rational arguments out of here? Oath was legal for years in extended, this doesn't mean Oath was fair. If a format is completely dominated by blue, you still say "blue has dominated for years so it's fair"? Please.

[swoop]

Tolarian Academy is safe.

please?

[DragoFireheart]

If the argument for banning Brainstorm is it's power level, then that same argument applies to JTMS, Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Stoneforge Mystic, Force of Will, Lion's Eye Diamond, Show and Tell, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, TriniSphere, and pretty much every other card that's considered a staple in the format. Once we start the precedent that a card can be banned because it's power level is somewhat higher than others, then people can whine about a card and get it banned because they don't like it's power level.

MMS is a potent card and caused a shift in the format but it's level of power in regards to negatively skewing the format is no where near that of Survival of the Fittest. Brainstorm is also a powerful card, but doesn't cause a negative effect on the format like MT did with Reanimator/Storm decks. If either gets banned, then any card can get banned for idiotic reasons until everyone is using aggro decks and Legacy turns into a bastard child of Standard.

If your issue is with Blade control and No RUG, banning Natural Order (a tutor) or maybe even Stoneforge Mystic (another tutor that can drop equipment that can't be countered) would be better choices. If you look at the ban list, WotC does not like tutors and rightly so. NO and SFM are both tutors that can drop powerful creatures for a relatively cheap cost compared to their actual cost. MMS and Brainstorm wouldn't seem so powerful if the other player couldn't get a 10/10 with protection from everythin by paying 2GG and sacrificing a green creature. And guess what: banning MMS or brainstorm isn't going to make those decks go away. They MIGHT get slightly weaker, but they'll still be using batterskuls and Progentius against you.

[Gheizen64]

If the argument for banning Brainstorm is it's power level, then that same argument applies to JTMS, Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Stoneforge Mystic, Force of Will, Lion's Eye Diamond, Show and Tell, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, TriniSphere, and pretty much every other card that's considered a staple in the format. Once we start the precedent that a card can be banned because it's power level is somewhat higher than others, then people can whine about a card and get it banned because they don't like it's power level.

MMS is a potent card and caused a shift in the format but it's level of power in regards to negatively skewing the format is no where near that of Survival of the Fittest. Brainstorm is also a powerful card, but doesn't cause a negative effect on the format like MT did with Reanimator/Storm decks. If either gets banned, then any card can get banned for idiotic reasons until everyone is using aggro decks and Legacy turns into a bastard child of Standard.

If your issue is with Blade control and No RUG, banning Natural Order (a tutor) or maybe even Stoneforge Mystic (another tutor that can drop equipment that can't be countered) would be better choices. If you look at the ban list, WotC does not like tutors and rightly so. NO and SFM are both tutors that can drop powerful creatures for a relatively cheap cost compared to their actual cost. MMS and Brainstorm wouldn't seem so powerful if the other player couldn't get a 10/10 with protection from everythin by paying 2GG and sacrificing a green creature. And guess what: banning MMS or brainstorm isn't going to make those decks go away. They MIGHT get slightly weaker, but they'll still be using batterskuls and Progentius against you.

Look like you haven't followed the discussion here.
None of the card you listed have the same effect on the blue predominance BS has. Also i don't see how nonblue cards are relevant here because nonblue decks aren't dominating anything and we've been speaking about BS only as the main culprit of blue dominance. JTMS could be considered overpowered, but it's one-shotted by Goyf and most creature in this format, making it considerably more fair compared to other formats. Also it isn't played by a lot of blue decks, combo decks with blue doesn't play it, more aggressive blue decks doesn't play it either (NoRUG and Merfolk). To address the other blue cards in the list, SnT is certainly powerful but pretty situational and not the reason blue is overplayed for sure since it's seen only in 1-2 combo decks. Force of Will and Mental Misstep are answer cards. Misstep is also played in decks that doesn't even splash islands, so it can't be considered "blue".

Tolarian Academy is safe.

please?

Tolarian academy is better than island, thus broken.

[DragoFireheart]

Look like you haven't followed the discussion here.
None of the card you listed have the same effect on the blue predominance BS has. Also i don't see how nonblue cards are relevant here because nonblue decks aren't dominating anything and we've been speaking about BS only as the main culprit of blue dominance. JTMS could be considered overpowered, but it's one-shotted by Goyf and most creature in this format, making it considerably more fair compared to other formats. Also it isn't played by a lot of blue decks, combo decks with blue doesn't play it, more aggressive blue decks doesn't play it either (NoRUG and Merfolk). To address the other blue cards in the list, SnT is certainly powerful but pretty situational and not the reason blue is overplayed for sure since it's seen only in 1-2 combo decks. Force of Will and Mental Misstep are answer cards. Misstep is also played in decks that doesn't even splash islands, so it can't be considered "blue".

Blue predominance?

Show me a deck list that only uses blue cards that topped 50% of the topic 8 in the last four months. Go on, do it. Oh wait, so Blue predominance was just evidence that you are being intellecutally dishonest? What you mean to say is "U/x" predominance. Because that is what this comes down to: multi-colored blue decks that splash for other things. It just so happens that Brainstorm is blue by design and is a good card. Yes, I have been following the discussion and I have yet to see a single argument to prove that brainstorm is "ban worthy". It's restricted in Vintage because of the sheer power of OTHER cards it can find.

Seeing a pattern here?

Your issue is not with brainstorm but the cards brainstorm is able to filter. Tell me, does brainstorm kill you, or is it the Batterskull/Progenitus that kills you? And what cards tutors those? And what style of cards has Wizards almost always banned? Tutors?

[Rizso]

Dont forget that force of will forces blue players to play thoes 50% blue card decks.

[Lemnear]

Dont forget that force of will forces blue players to play thoes 50% blue card decks.

That's plain incorrect. Statistically 18 cards including 4 Force of Wills are enough to run it without having a problem to have pitch-able cards in hand. Some Decks in vintage even try 16 but I am a fan of running 20. That's 1/3 of a deck at a Maximum.