All B/R update speculation.

[Rizso]

I dont want fow, brainstorm or Mental Misstep banned at all.

That rock and maverick in on decks to beat is a proof that MM nerfed combo and buffed midranged. The better midranged gets the worse force of will get. Seen much of forces going to the board instead as its not as good against the midrange decks.

[jrw1985]

I'd like Brainstorm banned. Let U have all the conditional counterspells in the world, just don't let them play an instant speed hand sculpter.

[DragoFireheart]

You should think they mean decks with blue, because to think that they mean decks with blue only is to be a dishonest prat.

- And most decks having blue is meaningless unless someone can show WHY it's bad. Dominance seems to suggest that other colors don't have a fair shot. Blue popularity would have been a better term but it's all semantics as I said. What they really mean is Blade Control/No RuG dominance. Blue dominance is arbitrary and doesn't focus on the actual issue (aka, the decks that are doing well). UW Landstill is a blue deck but sure as fuck isn't dominating anything. Spiral Tide has blue but isn't dominating anything.

No there's nothing wrong actually.

- So if everyone says 2+2= 5 but you, who's right?

Those decks obviously exist, but as you conveniently continue to ignore, are evidently less successful than the old non-blue decks like Goblin and the old Rock incarnations, or things like AggroLoam, Stompy/Stax variants and Suicide variants (which evolved to TA, a deck that splash blue).

- Because RUG/Blade control just recently came about. The meta would need time to adapt and allow powerful mid-range decks to keep them in check (blade control / No Rug). Harping on the issue of blue being dominate or popular is ignoring the actual decks that use them. What you mean to say is Blade Control / No RuG dominance, which is absolutely correct. However, banning cards is not the solution. More people seeing that mid-range decks exists and can fight the Blade/RUG decks and more people not being afraid to play them will result in the meta balancing out.

EDIT:

I dont want fow, brainstorm or Mental Misstep banned at all.

That rock and maverick in on decks to beat is a proof that MM nerfed combo and buffed midranged. The better midranged gets the worse force of will get. Seen much of forces going to the board instead as its not as good against the midrange decks.

Exactly. With combo decks pushed out, Mid-range decks can flourish. AND, those same decks can pack MMS, which allows them SOME chance against combo decks re-surging.

[Gheizen64]

- So if everyone says 2+2= 5 but you, who's right?

You seems extremely dense or just intentionally trolling, i hope the latter. We're talking about the meaning of a term that has actually no right definition, not about the truth of a logic proposition. Those two things have nothing in common.
A better comparison could have been something like:

- if everyone say the "Great Depression" is the one of the 1870/73 and you say it's the one of 1929, who's right?

In this case the others are (even if in the current world the great depression is usually the 1929 one). Great Depression isn't a logical proposition, is a term used to define something, and as such its "correct" definition is stated by its usage. However this isn't really analogue to our example, because this case here has a long history, whereas our has not, meaning the definition is still not rooted in the language and we can't research its meaning in any kind of hystorical sources.

[DragoFireheart]

You seems extremely dense or just intentionally trolling, i hope the latter. We're talking about the meaning of a term that has actually no right definition, not a logic proposition. You're comparing apples to oranges.

- Finally, thank you. Now, I'll drop it if you want. Well?

[Gheizen64]

- Finally, thank you. Now, I'll drop it if you want. Well?

Well what? You argued that we were using the terms wrong in our definition, while actually since everyone except you understood what we were meaning, then it's just you that were wrong.

This is somewhat grotesque.

[CorpT]

- Finally, thank you. Now, I'll drop it if you want. Well?

You should quit while you're as far behind as you are.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

First of all, no, it's not only those two decks.

Second of all if the number of decks running red and the number of decks running black is 30%, and the numbers of decks running white and the number of decks running green is 60%, and the number of decks running blue is 90%, then everyone but you seems to think we can have an intelligent discussion about how blue is incredibly dominant, and no one is confused by what is meant by that. Your confusion confuses me.

[DragoFireheart]

Well what? You argued that we were using the terms wrong in our definition, while actually since everyone except you understood what we were meaning, then it's just you that were wrong.

- I never said the term was wrong. Factious, misleading, yes.

First of all, no, it's not only those two decks.

- Blade Control and No RuG are the current decks that are doing extremely well. Is that wrong?

Second of all if the number of decks running red and the number of decks running black is 30%, and the numbers of decks running white and the number of decks running green is 60%, and the number of decks running blue is 90%, then everyone but you seems to think we can have an intelligent discussion about how blue is incredibly dominant, and no one is confused by what is meant by that. Your confusion confuses me.

- I don't give a crap about color %. Blue dominance is a meaningless phrase. Blade Control / NO RUG dominance is a more meaningful discussion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You seem to have been the only one mislead. Everyone else seems to have taken blue's dominance as a given. We could all change our communication styles to suit you, or you could recognize the common use of the term that seems to exist.

[DragoFireheart]

You seem to have been the only one mislead. Everyone else seems to have taken blue's dominance as a given. We could all change our communication styles to suit you, or you could recognize the common use of the term that seems to exist.

- Fine, I don't care then. Use whatever term you want, but stop pretending that blue being a popular color means anything.

Edit: I have in fact asked twice why blue being a popular/dominate color means anything. I still wait.

First of all, no, it's not only those two decks.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...election/page2

The cutoff falls at 71.26 points, giving us the following DTB:

* RUG Order
* Blade Control
* Merfolks
* Zoo
* Team America
* Maverick
* Reanimator
* The Rock

- Alright, so Merfolk as well for the top 3. Thoughts?

[Gheizen64]

- Fine, I don't care then. Use whatever term you want, but stop pretending that blue being a popular color means anything.

Edit: I have in fact asked twice why blue being a popular/dominate color means anything. I still wait.

Seems like you're a pretty distract reader. I'll copy my answer from some posts above:

Also to be more correct, blue doesn't simply take an higher % of the meta, winning blue decks do since what we're discussing are only T16, not all decks. Blue being popular isn't a bad thing per se. However the implications of a decreasing diversity due to such dominance is not appealing for a lot of players and have also always considered bad for formats. In the years it also look like blue % is just going up, never down, so it's not even a case of "wait for the format to adapt" anymore, the format adapted to blue and decided that the best way to adapt was to be even more blue.

This isn't a clear-cut case like Necro Summer or anything, because the culprit for blue's dominance isn't as clear as the culprit for most combo is. Still, some people argued that the culprit is MM, i and other argued that the culprit is most probably brainstorm.

Also penis penis penis penis penis penis. This is only a test to see if you actually read my post.

[DragoFireheart]

Seems like you're a pretty distract reader. I'll copy my answer from some posts above:

- I did read your response.

This isn't a clear-cut case like Necro Summer or anything, because the culprit for blue's dominance isn't as clear as the culprit for most combo is. Still, some people argued that the culprit is MM, i and other argued that the culprit is most probably brainstorm.

- Now explain why Brainstorm is the culprit for blue being dominating and not just a fun card that people like. Considering that Merfolk don't use it, it's clearly not as all powerful as some seem to be claiming.

[joemauer]

- Fine, I don't care then. Use whatever term you want, but stop pretending that blue being a popular color means anything.

Edit: I have in fact asked twice why blue being a popular/dominate color means anything. I still wait.

Blue being dominate makes the format stale. Duh.

Why have 5 colors if only one is going to get played, it goes against the nature of the game.

[DragoFireheart]

Blue being dominate makes the format stale. Duh.


Why have 5 colors if only one is going to get played, it goes against the nature of the game.

- Are all the other colors not used? Isn't it unrealistic to expect all the colors to be in perfect proportions?

[Zilla]

Now explain why Brainstorm is the culprit for blue being dominating and not just a fun card that people like. Considering that Merfolk don't use it, it's clearly not as all powerful as some seem to be claiming.

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

[JustPAT4]

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

I think I'm in love. +1

[DragoFireheart]

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's "popular" for the same reason that Google is "popular." Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

- Thank you for that Zilla. However, I disagree that brainstorm alone is the reason play blue. Force of Will along with Brainstorm along with the other counters, Jace, and other blue specific cards are what draw players to blue. Also, players don't like to lose instantly to combo. Blue is the best color to push out combo decks. As far as I see it, people would rather play blue and lose to aggro decks rather than play aggro decks and lose to combo.

I also disagree that other colors are getting weaker. Other colors may see less representation, but the power of non-blue cards like Tarmogoyf, STP, Wild Nacatal, Dark Confidant, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Grim Lavamancer, and others still hold relevance. It's just that more decks are turning into U/x/x aggro-control decks. Team America, Blade Control, and No RuG are all examples of this trend. Players splashing blue can play a aggro deck that doesn't lose instantly to combo.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action is necessary. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

- I agree with this completely.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

- I agree with this as well. Brainstorm is easily the best blue card if not the best card in Legacy.

[joemauer]

- Are all the other colors not used? Isn't it unrealistic to expect all the colors to be in perfect proportions?

I was just answering your question, I never said blue is dominate or that no other colors are being played.

@everyone else: Please stop crying "ban brainstorm". Cards such as brainstorm and force of will are the basis of the format. The only reason brainstorm is played so much right now isn't because it is the best card, it is because it is a very solid card the most popular color right now. Not many blue decks forgo brainstorm for the very same reason mono color decks(except combo) don't forgo wasteland. It just fits very well in the deck. It doesn't cause the deck to dominate. If you hate cards like brainstorm, FoW, or wasteland go play Modern or Standard, but please stop whinning that these cards are overpowered. It makes no sense to cry about solid cards.

[DragoFireheart]

I was just answering your question, I never said blue is dominate or that no other colors are being played.

- My bad, I thought you were implying that. Anyways, Zilla did a goo job at answering my question.