4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 volrath's stronghold
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 terravore
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 mental missteps
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
I got spanked by many decks, including an esperblade, and a obliterator eva green deck. Tested Chains, but it was rather disappointing. I took out 1 misstep and 1 terravore for the 2 chains. But i did put in 4 mental missteps, which I don't know whether its good or not. So this is the deck..any suggestions?
Explain why Chains was awful to you. What did you play against? What was the board state? What were you doing? Don't dismiss the card because it was "awful." The card is bad against decks that don't play Brainstorm, Jace, Visions. Very simple. It sucks against Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, etc. It's just there to keep the card advantage of NO RUG and Stoneblade in check.
But, this could all change if MM is banned. I don't think it should be banned, but if it is, Stoneblade isn't a deck anymore. At least, not a great one. Discard becomes super relevant, but that also means Chains becomes much less relevant if Stoneblade declines. Merfolk gets to come back, and we're back to post-Survival again.
I think the better play is for Wizards to unban Mystical Tutor. Simple enough. The card can't be bonkers in a format with MM, done deal. Overload on 1's and profit.
-Matt
When I tested Chains, I played against Esperblade and a eva green running arena instead of bob, (who knows why).Originally Posted by sdematt
Against Esper, the guy just didnt' use brainstorm and threw the brainstorm away with FOW. With jace, he just fatesealed me instead. Couldnt find answers to stop his jace.
Against the eva green with arena, he was still in top deck mode basically. It did stop his amazing card advantage with arena, but that deck has some really good topdecks over the rock. In a long drawn out battle, he won because I couldn't find my answers to stop two obliterators and 2 goyfs. I only had a maze out and a goyf. He basically out "threat" me.
From my standpoint, the rock is a very slow deck compared to some of these other decks out there.
So, you're wondering why you lost with Chains when you were, a) Dead on board against a deck playing Dark Confidant-get-around-Chains effects, b) dead on board against a Jace deck?
I'm not saying your results are skewed, but they're skewed. Sure, he pitched Brainstorm to Force. That means he didn't get to Brainstorm. How many games did you run? 5? 10? 15? I ran the card for at least 10 hours of testing, and it runs well. Sure, you won't have the nuts all the time. I've lost with Chains on board, since I drew land-land-land-land-Thoughtseize. It happens. But, other times, I've baited with Confidant and run out Chains. Or, he had 2 Visions about to come off and I forced through a Chains right before double Visions crack.
Chains is usually not a turn-2 play, unless you think you can get it, or you have something better to play on Turn 3 (like say, Top + confidant). Usually, I soften them up with discard, or attempt to play Top/SFM, then drop Chains. They usually haven't Brainstormed yet (good players save their Brainstorms, most of the people I know aren't BS'ing the end of Turn 1).
The argument at the tournament today was they can just aim Visions at you instead. My response was: fuckin' eh. Digging 3 cards deep seems fine to me. Unless you have the nut hand and want to keep EVERY card, it seems fine, even if you have to discard. I can't see myself caring, since they didn't get to dig, and I did, even if there wasn't a ton of value to it. I either cleared chaff, or get to look at new cards. Woot?
I mean, if I continue to run into decks where the card isn't useful, I'll board it. If I don't see any SFM/NO RUG in my meta, I'll put it in my binder. But, if you're running into a field full of SFM based decks (with Jace, BS, Visions) then the card is very good at controlling the amount of card advantage and quality their receive. Discard doesn't cut it when they just fill their hand back up.
-Matt
You are right. I didn't think it thoroughly. Didn't see the subtle effects of the card. But to be honest, chains is a 2 of in the deck.
How do you feel about MM in Rock?
Side not on Chains - don't play alongside library. If you're going to play both (please don't) NEVER activate the library.
-----Edited on-----
So, I'm writting this while Watching Machete... If you've never seen the movie, I'll put it like this. Most randomly awkward movie that's amazineg. I'm gonna put it alongside The Ghosts of Mars. Don't think there's anything else like it. PS. if you've never seen the Ghost of Mars, I like to call it the Random Screaming movie. Machete is Random Explosion, gunfight movie that ends with Matchete riding away on a bike while making out with Jessica Alba... Don't worry, this whole thing is random. And to anyone who's match I mess up, I'm sorry. I'm blaming the movie. Oh, and if you don't know Machete, he's the Mexican guy (cause he's always playing a mexican guy in the movies, he may actually be from somewhere else... don't care enough to wiki him... or his real name) who has a tattoo of a woman on his chest (Desporado), is in the Mexican Drug Cartel enforcer (Preditors), and leads the Mayans (Son's of Anarchy). About somewhere between round 4 and 5 Preditors took precidence... Michete finished but we're still watching him.
OK, On to Magic stuff.
Round 1 vs ANT
Game 1 - He opens off with a Duress into Thoughtseize and starts sculpting. Turn 2 I drop Bob and eventually find a Greens Sun Zenith, which goes to get Pridemage over knight - pridemage can cause a win if they play out of order | LED--> non-tutor-->Pridemage the LED. He digs a little more and still hasn't gone off. I'm thinking it's probably because I've only got a Bob and a Pridemage on the field. Bob flips thoughtseize which shows me Tutor, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, and 2 lands. I take the tutor and his deck proceeds to continue udmping on him.
Game 2. I turn 1 a Bob and turn 3 Teeg. He doesn't have much else to do as he's missing his second black source to use to 3 tutor that have ben drawn that game.
Probability happens and this is about as pretty as the Floyd Maywether fight last night. Nothing really to learn from it except screw is still a problem.
Round 2 vs Fish
Game 1 - I play top into Bob which gets forced. Bob was bait for the for the Mystic who lands and turns into Batterskull quickly. Batterskull recovers me from 7 life to 20 before he scoops (obviously friends joined in and became more as the game went longer).
Game 2 - I keep a hand that has potential for Llawan to come down... I just need to get to the blue source (GSZ or Mox). My T2 topdeck is a GSZ, I play it (before I drop my land... yup, did that) into a daze. Luckily I get the mox. I try to bait out counters to ensure that I land the Llawan (Pridemage to hit the vial@3). He lets them hit Play and forces the Llawan. At this point he's only got a 4/4 Commander. I topdeck the Maze (lucky) into Mystic. Mystic again turns into BS and recovers me from 2 life. Oh, there was a Jitte somewhere in there.
Yeah, we knew Batterskull was good against Merfolk. As a plan B, Llawan does well enough. ironically I play tihs person later (EPIC FORESHADOWING).
Round 3 vs Team America
Game 1 - I start off with top into Bob and ride it out to victory. I'm super confused as to what he's playing since he says he's color screwed and I've only seen Blue and Green. On top of that he's down to 3 lands ...So, I don't know if he's got Natural order, Mystics, Rug, Band, Old school Thresh (I mean real old school), or anything. So sideboarding is a little difficult.
Game 2 - Again with the Lands (although, knight is also helping this time around). Knight, Bob, Pridemage, and Mystic all join forces and create Voltron to win the day vs... pretty much nothing.
It's always fun destroying lands but there is a point were you have to win the game. That's why there are only 3 Wastelands. There are times were I would love to completely destroy their manabase but I'd rather just win the game.
round 4 vs Dredge
Game 1 - he Mulls to 5 and goes nuts on turn 2. By Nuts I mean he blows his load pitching everything to the yard. I pray for the bog to be on top, since I'played first. ANSWERED. Sometimes it's better to be lucky that good. To be fair, I had pulse knight in hand... Just needed two turns to get them active. Would have gone Knight into pulse but it would still have worked... If I had the time.
Game 2 - He mulls to 5 again. I turn 2 a Knight... Start doing all kinds of crazy things like Playing mystic to get BS (man these plays are kind of repetitive). He scoops at that point as he gives me enough credit to know that I can just bounce the BS to off the token in case of bridge.
So, Mulls to 5 are also great ways to test a deck. I would love to cover up for at but, I have no intentions of lying to you about how the tournament went... You... Lucky tournament.
Round 5 vs Imperial Painter
I offered the draw but he declines. I explain to the table next to be about how badgering someone to draw is against the rules. My opponent asked me if I'd think any less of him if he didn't accept... I offer him a hug... there was a look on his face... that look. At this point, I know he's probably going to want my head on a stick after this...
Game 1 - He plays Turn 1 recuriter. I play a top... he plays painers, I play swords. Then I thoughtseize him. After that it's just a matter of bob pretty much going to town on him.
Game 2 - Turn 1 Grindstone. Turn 2 Painter (off 2 land). he pyro's my swords (only one) when I try to catch him the next turn. I waited since, if he didn't have the land, he'd have to tap out to activate the Grindstone. Didn't work out so well... Next game...
Game 3 - I keep thoughtseize, Birds, Basic swamp (if you didn't know, the deck plays Moon effects so that's really good to have the bird and basic land) Savannah, Deed, Swords, Green Sun. Leading with the bird, he plays the Grindstone. I thoughtseize and he's got nothing. We play it out to a point that I've swords/Combat damaged 3/4 Painters. I've also Got the Ooze out there just in case he decides to somehow bring them back (Noxious revival is a card). it turns out that being abel to deal with 3 of them is good enough... Especially when you end at 6 life from your own things trying to kill you (Bob).
This was the first loss and I think it's probably one of the only things I didn't want to see again (Don't like having to wonder about random things happening). I know that the ANT player can make it on brakers. I'm a little worried about that but he HAS to win the next round where-as this guy may just be able to draw in next round anyways (secretly inside, I'm hoping he has to play it out. We could've just played for fun and not had the suspense of risking the top 8 slots.
Either way, I offer to give him the hug (I was serious). He again gives me that odd look but decides to refuse the hug... Everyone around tells him that I'm not being the biggest prick... I just am like that. This happens a lot. There are times when you like dealing with poeple, and times when you'd rather not have to deal with them... this was the former.
Round 6 vs Merfolk
Last round of the swiss and I'm matched up against a buddy who doesn't know if he can make it in with a draw... Good 'ol last round opponent for messing up the math. I know I'm in no matter what since I'm the only 15 pointer. So I concede bringing him up. Then I look at the standings and see that he's locked at 13 with a draw... Yup. random loss for the win... I LOST MY PLANESWALKER POINTS... HA. Those things don't matter.
Top 8 vs Bant
Game 1 - I open up with a thoughtseize, he brainstorms and doesn't look to thrilled about the find. He hides some cards and shows me another brainstorm, a Clique and a hierarch as options. I take the hierarch as I have the swords for the Cluque and he can hide whatever he wants. He plays a Goyf the next turn so I swords it and play Bob. he cliques and I pulse it away (seeing Green Sun, Elpeth, Mystic, and Pulse doesn't make that choice very easy. I waste him (drawn from the lost Elspeth) and pretty much just take over at that point.
now the big issue here is that I don't know if he's got Progen or not. So, I err on the side of caution and side in the Llawans. No Chokes since he's got Hierarchs and I saw a Savannah.
Game 2 - Pretty much like game 1 but there are a couple turns where he's at 4 lands (1 arbor) and we're both in top-deck mode. he doesn't draw a Natural Order and I draw an Ooze (With SofI on the feild). Ooze eats a couple creatures but can't get past his freshly drawn Maze. then I draw Elspeth. I make a token and move the Sword. Kind of want 1 of them to deal some damage. Game ends when I draw a mystic to grab BS.
Turns out he doesn't have Natural Order in the list. in fact, the only blue creatures he had were 3 Cliques and a War Monk... Oh well.
Top 4 vs Merfolk (ref Round 2)
Game 1 - He's on the play and starts out with a vial. I play a top and try for Bob on turn 2, that gets forced. he drops a silvergill and swings for 3. On my turn I top and see elspeth... Now my manabase is Forest, Swamp | Hand is Savannah, Scrub, and Bayou. I put the Elspeth on top and drop the Bayou... he plays Regery, and vials in Phantasmal image. Swings. I pulse those 2. Next turn he play Silvergill and Lord of Atlantis. I Pulse the Gills and sword the lord. Last card in hand, Coralhelm hits play. I can't deal with it before he finishes me off.
Game 2 - Bob and Mystic get forced. He's still drawing enough gas to take it on the back of Kira + Sower (who stole 1 of 2 Knights). Llawan was my only out but I was unable to find her. Sometimes, them's the breaks.
-----
Ended in 3rd place and took home a Savannah. didn't watch the finals (Folk vs Loam | Gene's article will be on starcity sometime this week talking about the Loam list he played. I recommend you check it out if you want to see the list he played) Top 4 was 2x Folk, Rock, Loam (No Assualts). Don't actually know what all was in the top 8 (Mind Over Matter combo, Imperial Painter, Bant, and... sorry don't remember)
I still don't know how I feel about the Dismembers but I don't know what else to put there. Path isn't exactly my cup of tea (I hate advancing my opponents plan) and I'm still looking at a posstible alternate to Choke. I'm not sure if it's needed anymore. The cards rediculas but I seem to be able to force most decks into a bottleneck. In, or around a Jace. some people suggested Scryb Ranger as a card against submerge and I think I may try it. Right now, I look at it as 5 cards that are on the block.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 11-01-2011 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Tournament Report - Removed list.
Your report seems pretty good, and it was a nice read!
Regarding Chains, don't activate Sylvan, for the love of God!
Also, that's Danny Trejo in Machete. He's also in Breaking Bad, Heat, and a ton of other stuff. He's also referred to in "Heat" by his last name, Trejo. Just a fun FYI.
If you don't like Path/Dismember, Ghastly Demise is super good. You can actually bring it in against Stoneblade (you can't actually bring Path in against Stoneblade, you just lose at that point).
How was Eternal Witness for you?
I found myself using Vindicate to blow out lands the last little bit, but I'm also playing Hymn (which has the possibility of Sinkholing). I think if you're not on the Hymn plan, Pulse is the way to go.
-Matt
@AggroSteve (and others interested):
I'm having trouble fitting a third Vindicate, but I'm pretty sure it's better than the 4th Goyf, tbh.
About the SFM-package, Jitte does not require and explanation, but Sword of Body and Mind might. Like I said, the CA of decks with jace is a problem, another problem with jace is the bounce with counterbackup. A third problem is quick green decks. Then there is NO RUG, they play Jace AND Goyfs. Sword of Body and Mind is my choice simply because of the colors.
Batterskull just feels too slow in the version I'm trying to play. I can see it in the GSZ-version since that is already running a bit slower.
About Elspeth: She is absolutely amazing, but you'd not want more than 1, I think. Everytime i Top'd into her i felt like I was about to win... Sadly, everytime this happened my opponent slammed his Elspeth the turn before and I had to kill it with mine. Not kidding. Two games in a row. But it's helluva strong in matchups where the board position is in a stalemate, think GW maverick, NO RUG, bant aggro, zoo...
What are people's thoughts on the SB in a meta of Zoo/StoneBlade/GW/RUG/Bant mainly?
Givens for me are:
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Gravehate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip/Qasali Pridemage
2 More Spot Removal
2-3 Chains
That leaves 1-2 open slots.
Also, @sdematt:
What are your thoughts behind dropping the moxes? Because you skipped Loam? Loam did feel like it never did enough for me, but the moxes still felt strong...
Edit: I also don't get how you can main Chains, do you never fight against non draw-decks? I just don't like dead cards. It feels given in the SB tho.
i had the same thoughts on moxes and loams, moxes are really strong, i am right now testing the full set, seeing how it feels, loam though was often underwhelming, so i cut it to 1, but i necessary i can still put a 2nd one in the sideboard
the card i added instead of loam was the 3rd divining top. the more i played and played i started missing it sooo much with only 2 in the list
i tested elspeth now for a bit, as a 2 off, and meh, she sucked all day, maybe i am just not used to her, but every opponent seems to fear her, and the next few attacks went allways on her resulting mostly in dead elspeths, as i too often had flyers against me and no maze in play think i will remove her again from the list as she does not fit my playstyle at all
@ berry, on your sideboard i would think it looks quite good, but i would definitely choose krosan grip over pridemage as it is way stronger against stoneblade and any deck that runs blue and mystic
my board looks exactly the same. I add in 1 nulls, 1 enlightened tutor, take out a metamorph and a dueling grounds to fight zoo..
Monster's Den! Our place in Stockholm is called Dragon's Lair! ;)
Glad to see people are getting to a general consensus on how to board (in the more common main-builds)! I think this is neccessary.
AggroSteve: Elspeth is mostly to get past stalemates, not to get up from behind (although it can work if they are beating you with just 1 dude, infinity blockers is good!). Also, I didn't fight many flyers (people are going red in StoneBlade here to fight folks, therefore cutting spellstutters).
@SB: The last spot is OBVIOUSLY a Tower of the Magistrate. Card is bonkers. Also, ofc Krosan Grip is better, silly me.
What kind of spot removal do people like? I've seen Path, Go for the Throat, Dismember and Ghastly Demise so far... I think I like Ghastly Demise and Go for the Throat most! Thoughts?
Berry? Monster's Den? How'd you know where I was playing?
Matt, Witness was pretty good. Earlier lists had 2 but I cut it down to 1 because I had a Stronghold. It wasn't something that was strong enough for 2 but the single is just fine. There are a lot of times that Witness gets the card you need. Sometimes it just sits there. I like it but, it'll probably be the next cut from the main. Just haven't seen anything that's really going to beat it out.
I'm still looking at for alternatives to dismember (which has done it's job so until I find something else will remain). The reason I don't like path is because it still advances the draws of your opponent. I'm still not a fan of Demise since it can't kill bob and can be outdone by random Graveyard removal.
Isn't smother the best non-swords removal? Kills verything but tombstalker.
So you lose to other people playing merfolk but never me. Screw you ian.
<3 you Phoenix Ignition. I don't normally lose to Folk. To be fair, I don't normally lose to it without me making a mistake. To be fair to the deck. I'm 0-X against Merfolk on the when they mull to 5 and I open with a Thoughtseize. Haven't figured that out yet either.
Derayler, It kills 3 or less. SO, sower, Reanimator targets and other things are also left out. I'll give it a shot in testing. Of those, sower and Jin are probably the only 2 that I can think of caring about. The cost is the only thing that makes me wonder about it.
I think Vindicate is at its best in lists with 4 Goyf and Moxes. Simply because getting ahead on board and then blowing up their lands is really awesome. I think in more slower Rock decks(like Stoneforge Mystic) and/or lists without moxes, Vindicate becomes less interesting simply because your attackplan is that much slower. I those cases I think Maelstrom Pulse is better.
Personally I cannot afford to buy cards right now, and I do not have any Moxes, so I am going with 3 Missteps in that slot to add to the disruption(also without adding more mana constraints to the deck).
I like the sideboard plan listed above, mine contains 2 duress for combo as well. Also pack Tower of the Magistrate, it's a beast against opposing Stoneforge strategies.
About the spotremoval discussion, any love for Putrefy? The instant artifact destruction is quite relevant often.
Damion: The dude who deleted his post mentioned it. If this is sensitive information, I'll delete mine, too. Just thought the closeness in names was funny.
Smother has it's weaknesses, but it still feels stronger than Ghastly Demise actually... ALOT of decks will bring in their relics and crypts against us, rendering Demise useless. Putrefy is cute but way too expensive, in my eyes. Yet to find the perfect card... Dismembers life-drawback hurts in a deck running Bob, Thoughtseize and no lifegain.
Vindicate is still my choice over pulse for the simple reason that I CAN hit lands, not that I often will. This might be wrong, especially since I just cut Loams.
I just mentioned that you tickled me at the MD. Awkward. (not really I liked it).
@berry reguarding the spotremoval discussion i would definitely go with GftT over Smother, even though i love smother way more^^ simply due to the fact that it can hit reanimators creatures where smother just sits in your hand (well at least until end-of-turn-step against jin-gitaxas) and does nothing
that being said, IMO Go for the Throat actually hits more relevant creatures than smother, well at least if your meta is not infestet with some decks called affinity, or maybe MUD :D, and against both of them smother is not the best choice either
on elspeth, you might be right that i used her in the wrong way, well i still had no expierience with her, so its understandable
but either way as i prefer the landscrewplan with repeated wasteland and vindicate i am often stuck on 3 mana, a big knight that either stalls opponent on his own thx to maze of ith and being biiiigg or just riding him to victory
i think elspeth sadly just doesn't fit my playstyle
on the vindicate matter mucleb might have a point there, that vindicate gets much stronger in a moxbuild, though i have to add that i ran a nonmoxbuild for a long time and had completely no issues with vindicate being to slow
its versatility just pays of, but he might be right with pulse being the stronger choice for nonmoxbuilds
if i would switch back to a nonmox build i will have to test this
@ Berry
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tariff
This is what I'm running right now. You've got 4 answers to Progenitus, 4 pieces of Gravehate, 4 things against Aggro, another 5 slots against Stoneblade (pretty sure you'd bring in Demise), etc.
My meta consists of 50% Stoneblade, for sure. I run into it all the time. I'm one of two players who don't regularly play Blue, and thereby, Brainstorm. The card is crazy good in my meta (Chains of Mephistopheles, for those who aren't following this train of thought).
I've dropped the Moxes for a few reasons: 1) I've packed in more discard to help fight Stoneblade, 2) You curve so nicely anyway, I'm doing solid things on all my turns, the 1-turn boost then possible stall isn't always worth it to me, 3) I've dropped Loam, so Moxen are less awesome now. Again, I'm running 3 basics and I'll be on the disruption plan in turns 1-3, if possible. Sure, Turn 1 SFM is great, but so is T2 SFM after baiting a counterspell with Thoughtseize.
Regarding Qasali, he's great if you're running GSZ, but Grip in addition to Qasali is the right call. One gets countered/dodged, one doesn't.
Elspeth is a great addition, but I literally have 0 slots for her with Chains main. If I wasn't running Chains main, she'd be a 1-2 of.
@ Choice of removal
It really depends what you want. STP is obviously the best, but the second can be more interesting.
Path: Super greasy, but accels them. Terrible against SFM, and at times, Merfolk. MM makes it worse.
Ghastly Demise: Doesn't kill Dark Confidant or Tombstalker, but handles everything else. Super decent, easy to cast, no land or life drawbacks. Gets around Iona on White.
Dismember: Easy to cast, but costs you life. You're usually not having a ton of life to spare, especially with Confidant though. Handles any creature except Iona, Sphinx, Grave Titan, etc. if that's relevant.
Smother: Kills everything except anything in Reanimator or Tombstalker.
Go for the Throat: Doesn't kill Factory...very decent card.
Putrefy: Instant speed, dodges Iona, doesn't kill Spinx, and kills artifacts. VERY good, but costs 3. I used to play 1-of maindeck, and it was good.
@ Vindicate
Vindicate is still a real card in this format. You have Wastelands, Hymns, and creature removal. Vindicate also hits Sylvan Library, which is really important to NO Rug, hits Jace, hits a random manlands, and kills Equipment. I still use it on lands in certain matchups, but I agree, a 3-drop is better with Moxes, but it isn't bad without. It's still really relevant in removal-terms.
If you're not playing Hymn and you never play against land light matches like NO RUG, then run Pulse, or run 2 Pulse 1 Vindicate, or whatever. I don't care, just play which one you like, it honestly doesn't matter. If you're more all in on white with SFM, I'd say run Vindicate just for mana consistency.
@ Ghastly Demise
Sure they'll bring their removal in, but it's not like you've taken out all of your Swords. You're basically just doubling up. They may have nuked your Graveyard before, or they haven't yet. Maybe they brought stuff in, maybe they didn't. The only problem is the possibly misstep, but with all your discard, they've probably either used most of them up or discarded it. Personally, I like having to only keep 1 mana open instead of 2, especially when Daze is a real card again. It's not super relevant, but you know what I mean.
Thanks for reading a really long post.
-Matt
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote