I just want to do something with basic ANT, none of the crazy awesome color splashes. This is what I have come up with below. Let me know whats up, and what needs to be changed.
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion’s eye diamond
2 chrome mox
2 mox diamond
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 gitaxian probe
4 duress
3 thought sieze
4 infernal tutor
1 ill gotten gains
1 ad neausium
1 tendrils of agony
4 darkslick shores
4 gemstone mine
4 polluted delta
2 island
3 swamp
Ding, fries are done
I assume you haven't included Underground Sea for budget reasons but I feel like pointing out that using some of those and more blue fetch lands would be better because of the interaction with Ponder and Brainstorm.
Darkslick Shores is pretty much exactly as good as the Sea here though.
Sure: nobody expects the spanish inquisiiton! (ups wrong deck)Originally Posted by deviant
I´m a Derek, and Derek's don't run...
It isn't and it's not even close.....
Now with mm being banned, the discard effects will be a lot more effective and noone is taking your brainstorm away.
also...it's ad nauseam
Ok so I know seas would be better, but lets just say I can't afford it (which is the trueth) how many games on average, as a percent, would it cost me to run shores or any of the other lands which produce blue and black, like a rav dual?
Ding, fries are done
In a deck that punishes each point of dmg coming at its owner (ad nauseum, fetchlands, thought seize) those extra 2 points of CIPT dmg are going to be significant.
You need to be using life as a resource to cast spells, not play lands. Shores simply won't work because they're not fetchable.
I'd say that the difference between Darkslick Shores and USea is not THAT great when we're talking about UB ANT, because most of the time you're fetching for basics anyway. However, if you play 3 or more colors, the difference in powerlevel becomes too great. The manabase of UB ANT is very stable, so you can throw in some suboptimal lands (although I'd avoid playing shocklands) and not be hurt that much by it. I think you should try and buy just 1 USea, because just one copy of the card will allow you to make a very solid manabase with a lot of fetches and basics.
I have been playing a list similar to yours for almost a year now; for reference, this is the list. In my experience, I almost always have basic lands in play; that's why a lot of these lists run such a high number of fetchlands and basic lands. Most of the time, the only time I ever fetch for a dual land is the turn I plan on winning; as a caveat, the reason I get a dual is because the fetchland I have in play does not get me the necessary mana I need. I don't know what your budget is, but you can buy an Underground Sea for $60 - $70 on eBay which isn't unreasonable. You can probably get away with playing one Underground Sea. However, your biggest issue isn't the lack of an Underground Sea, its your lack of fetch lands. Fetchlands make Ponder and Brainstorm so much more powerful because of the shuffle effects to get rid of cards that are undesirable.
I don't know if I'm in the minority on this issue, but Mox Diamond seems so much worse than any number of other cards you could have in the deck. I understand that it has an upside post Ad Nauseam, but those upsides weighed against the times in which you don't get it when flipping with Ad Nauseam, or have it in hand without a land to discard seem much worse. You could probably sell your Mox Diamonds and get a good start on picking up an Underground Sea. Plus, Sea will have more value if you ever decide to change decks.
If your looking for something on a budget, the list below is a good place to start:
Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Instants
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
Lands
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
The mana base is relatively cheap. If you act quickly, you can pick up Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacombs as Standard players dump their copies with the rotation coming up. The fetchland combination will let you reliably get access to a stable land base while maximizing the shuffle effects in the deck. It also runs Preordain which is more effective than Gitaxian Probe in its ability to dig which his what you want to be doing. While Probe may provide you with information, you're also running seven maindeck Duress effects which should be sufficient to provide you with necessary information to win. This is why Preordain is better; you can dig for your discard spells more effectively. The benefit of Probe is that it is free. However, when flipping it with Ad Nauseam, you have treat it like a -3 instead of -1 since you'll likely be paying the alternative casting cost.
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1 blazing achron
1 iona
1 jin
side board
3 jin-gitasis
3 animate dead
3 reanimate
3 careful study
3 entomb
so game 2, i drop 4 lotus petal, 4 cabel ritual, 1, igg, 1 ad nauseum, 1 tendrils, 1 duress, gitaxis probe
What do you think guys
I'm not sure what matchups you would ever want to well.. become a worse combo deck. Reanimator had a presence in a misstep era because it was able to capitalize, very well on the first 2-3 turns of the game. ANT is a deck that is able to sit and develop its game - it doesn't mind if the deck hits the mid game.
I guess my question is, when would I want to be resolving an animate dead over an ad nauseum? When would it be easier for an opponent boarding against a combo deck to resolve an entomb over a dark ritual? A good player boarding against a combo player is going to bring in grave hate, chalice style hate (pick your poison), and maybe pithing needle or something like that - the decks require the same action to perform well. It would just be a bad reanimator deck without counter backup. Lacking the full package of discard and reanimation would make it slower than normal reanimator as well.
And now the deck has 5 cards maindeck that are essentially auto-muls. It has no outs to resolved leyline/grave hate or permanent based hate of any kind.
Yes, game two can be harder than game 1 but that's the fun of combo, playing around a competent opponent; and changing the entire deck in a way that seems counter-intuitive might make it harder than simply playing decks to interact with your opponent. Or, you can always just win turn 1.
yeaaaaaaah........
counter balance, any new ideas on how to approach this matchup now that it will be heavily played again?
doomsday is still real, krosan grip still costs 3 one of which needs to be green. wipe away is a card. i guess reverent silence is as well.
fish will be big again but i never really worried about that deck
or i guess just jam past in flames in TNT and see what happens, need to work on these.
I don't think I understand what the question is.. Is there a question here? Maybe just a comment?
Counter balance is half of the reason people used to play 4 Doomsday in their sideboards... I still don't know what the question is.
the question/ statement is meant to foster discussion in the direction towards counterbalance.
i was also just thinking of ideas of how to beat it, sorry if my posting is kind of ramble-y
the real question is: has anyone thought of anything else besides doomsday? which although is powerful, the jig is up and competent players know what's going on.
I haven't played this deck since the banning of Mystical Tutor, but I tried everything imaginable against Counterbalance. I found the best way to beat it was Krosan Grips, bobs, and thoughtseizes out of the board, and a lot of practice. I probably played the ANT vs CB MU for 3-4 hours a day every day (college heh). It got to the point where I would beat any CB player who didn't test against extensively against ANT, and my testing partner actually never lost to ANT in any tournament.
TIME POLICE
Comparatively, I think your deck is a less consistent and less powerful version of both ANT and Reanimator respectively. I understand the concept of hybridization that you're going for and it works well in decks such as Bant and RUG which can have a "oops I win" top deck with Natural Order. However, the nature both ANT and Reanimator as linear strategies means the deck should be as streamlined as possible toward whatever the deck is trying to do (Storm out or Reanimate). Attempting to combine the two only means you are detracting from the overall goal of the other. A specific example of this is that you are running three reanimate targets in the maindeck. However, these cards all have such a high mana cost that it makes flipping with Ad Nauseam simply terrible. Theoretically, you could cast them if you generated enough mana and had a Lion's Eye Diamond (for the white creatures), but that seems underwhelming and inefficient relative to dedicating the deck to one strategy or another.
The problem reanimate strategies had to overcome was the with the lack of Mystical Tutor, the deck had to slightly increase the creature count because it meant you had to rely on Careful Study instead of eight virtual copies of Entomb. If you're really set on this strategy, I would suggest something like this:
Land (15)
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
Mana Acceleration (16)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Disruption (7)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
Tutors (6)
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Entomb
Engine (2)
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
Win Condition (1)
1x Tendrils of Agony
Cantrips (13)
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
4x Ponder
1x Preordain
Sideboard
x2 Entomb
x4 Reanimate
x4 Exhume
5 Creatures
The maindeck puts a heavier emphasis on the Storm portion of the deck. Careful Study can function fine as a cantrip. The fact that it draws you two cards can actually be powerful. Entomb, at worst, can be a one B spell that puts two cards to your graveyard to allow the deck to reach Threshold faster to enable Cabal Ritual. At its best, Entomb can be used to create some interesting interactions with Ill-Gotten Gains. There are five slots in the sideboard which are to be used for the reanimate creature package. Sideboard would look something like this:
In
2 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
5 Creatures
Out
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Preordain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Others
The Storm engine comes out (3). The extra Preordain (1) isn't necessary since post board you have eight reanimate spells and twelve ways to put creatures into the graveyard along with twelve cantrips (as opposed to only 4 Infernal Tutor). Cabal Ritual (4) is too slow at two mana since you can just put a creature into the yard turn one and reanimate turn two. Lotus Petal (4), while potentially enabling some fast draws, is way to much of a dead draw in most situations. The last three slots are somewhat in contention between Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond. Ritual allows turn on Reanimates and can also help to pay for taxing counters. Lion'sy Eye Diamond functions as another discard outlet (albeit requiring some work) and can also allow you to use a Hellbent Infernal Tutor to dig for a Reanimate spell. I would suggest -1 Lion's Eye Diamond and -2 Cabal Ritual.
What lead you the Grip, Thoughtseize, Bob conclusion relative to the other options such as more Ad Nauseam/Tendrils or Doomsday out of the board?
Preparing for Countertop, a Guide for Being Evil
You can expect this disruption package from CounterTop decks:
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Vendillion Clique
Which they find using:
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Brainstorm
Additionally, you can expect the following out of the board:
2 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
The curve will generally feature:
22 lands (zero drops)
12+ one drops
10+ two drops
5+ three drops
2-4 four drops
4-6 five drops
Some builds may be packing more.
Their primary offense will be either Tarmogoyf or Stoneforge Mystic.
I think this is my first double-post ever.
You sir, need to compile a small article and give us some pointers! I am going into ANT for the next season of Legacy and I could use some friendly suggestions.
Is there a general consensus on what a counterbalance lists will look like now? From what I can remember, the dominate archetypes prior to its decline where NO Bant & UW/UWr/UWb Thopter Sword. I found the article the Hatfields wrote on the metagame trends prior to the printing of Mental Misstep. It would seem that Counterbalance had been trending down in the prior months. If the metagame reverts back to where it was in May, it is possible that counterbalance will be a poor choice.
I believe the presences of Junk/Zoo decks (especially with Green Sun's Zenith) and Merfolk decks will help to curb the potentially resurgence of counterbalance decks. Another outlier deck in Goblins may also see a resurgence which would contribute to the curbing of this resurgence as well. While I think the banning of Mental Misstep has help counterbalance decks. However, I do not necessarily think they can overcome some of the other decks in the format. I think we'll see traditional control players either moving toward counterbalance or Stoneblade decks; what they decide will likely be determined by which of those decks posts better win percentages against Mefolk, Junk, Zoo and Bant/RUG decks. I believe Stoneblade may still be a better choice against the field. While the combo match up is important, combo also represents a small percentage of the metagame. This means the match up percentages against the aforementioned will likely be the determining factor. The X-Factor for Stoneblade will be how much Mental Misstep actually contributed to the Zoo/Junk/Merfolk/RUG(Bant) match ups.
As long as they don't contain Stifle/Wasteland (like Dreadstill), we can always go back to Doomsday/Emrakul transformational sideboard.
With regard to how the lists will look like, I think they'll go in three directions: Tom Martell style Four Colour Counterbalance, Barnello style Uw Stonforge Thopter and ProBant. The first two will probably attract former StoneBlade/NO RUG players, given that the meta indeed will become favourable for CounterTop decks
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