[Deck] Dredge

[Gui]

In my experience, Brainstorm is hands down better than Winds of Changes:

• It can put cards back on top, which is more relevant than people give it credit for, using it as a pseudo-discard after you dredge in the next turn, and can recover Moeba from hand;
• It doesn't ruin your hand in the process of drawing;
• WoC usual number of draws are 3 and 4;
• Brainstorm can be cast off of a Cephalid Coliseum
• Draw 3 is gamebreaker most of the time

After some time considering, I think Tribe/Putrid (and Firestorm too, go figure...) is not the right spot for the DDD list. In my view, Street Wraith will help just as much, if not more, against artifact hate, forcing them to break relic T1, or dredging for a grudge if fighting against Tormod's.


BTW, here's a question 4eak
Even though the chances of being explosive increases if you DDD against combo, considering a 8-dork list, isn't the fact that you are playing one turn before your opponent more relevant than the increased chance you got of having a good hand?
Besides, what is the chance of being explosive after 1 or 2 mulligans? Because in DDD you don't have the chance to Mull, but with dorks you can.

[Smea.gol.lum]

If you take 4eak's list with 4 Putrid Imp in the flex slots, how would your sideboard plans look like?
What would you board out? Something like -1 Ichoird, -1 Phanta, -1Breakthrough, -1Putrid Imp if you board in the Grudges?

[NecroYawgmoth]

In my experience, Brainstorm is hands down better than Winds of Changes:

• It can put cards back on top, which is more relevant than people give it credit for, using it as a pseudo-discard after you dredge in the next turn, and can recover Moeba from hand;
• It doesn't ruin your hand in the process of drawing;
• WoC usual number of draws are 3 and 4;
• Brainstorm can be cast off of a Cephalid Coliseum.
• Draw 3 is gamebreaker most of the time

* Pseudo discard for the price of dredging 2 [unknown] cards less, when you no longer need to discard. I give you Moeba, but this should be irrelevant if I am able to Dredge 18 cards.
* Is this even an Agrument? I mean we are Dredge... come on. Breakthrough also ruins our hand, and we don't care. We just win.
* WoC Dredges 5-6 in DDD mode. and 4 is still > than 3
* That's true.
* Draw 4,5,6 isn't?

You got the point that Brainstorm is better castable with Cephalid Coliseum, but this is the only relevant point, here IMO

[Gui]

* Pseudo discard for the price of dredging 2 [unknown] cards less, when you no longer need to discard. I give you Moeba, but this should be irrelevant if I am able to Dredge 18 cards.
* Is this even an Agrument? I mean we are Dredge... come on. Breakthrough also ruins our hand, and we don't care. We just win.
* WoC Dredges 5-6 in DDD mode. and 4 is still > than 3
* That's true.
* Draw 4,5,6 isn't?

You got the point that Brainstorm is better castable with Cephalid Coliseum, but this is the only relevant point, here IMO

a) The 2 unknown card is less relevant than moeba, specially because you usually have something else to pitch, like bridge or ichorid. I've done the moeba trick before, and since you have 40% of opening a moeba in hand, it is not hard to happen. Also, it is relevant to to use the moeba most of the time -> 12 zombies is always better than 8 after a DR.

b) Of course this is an argument, I can have multiple draw spells, more lands, hardcast therapy, cast droks to use DR. C'mon, you know our hand got usages.

c) I give you that, WoC will be more relevant in DDD mode, unless, of course, you decide you have good things to pitch to a Phantasmagorian and oh wait, there you go, instead of 5 (7 minus land minus WoC) you go to 3 (7 minus land minus WoC minus 2 cards for 'Gorian).

d) This is soooo true.

e) Do you know the concept of "overkill"?

[NecroYawgmoth]

a) Not if your opponent has Propaganda & Vedalken Shackles =P Jokes aside, 16 Zombies are > than 15 and bla, but a win is still a win, and you argue with "overkilling" in point e while making more Zombies can also be "non-needed" overkill. How many times have you won games with Moebas in hand? It isn't that hard...

b) Yeah, but people never blame Breathrough for destroying the hand. With 1 BIG draw you simply win. Why do I need handcards, when I yard w Therapies, x Moebas, y Bridges, z DR/FKZ or enogh Ichroids/anything to win next [or this] turn?

c) If you just DDD and do land -> WoC is still 6 cards (Dredge [8], Land [7], -> Woc [6]) Even if you consider Phantasmagorian for whatever reason its 4 cards, which is equal to Breakthrough and 1 more than Brainstorm.

d) It is.

e) It's not overkill in the like of Stalking Vengeance or such, where you waste ressources like a DR and a card slot. That said, Breakthrough then seems like overkill also.

[Gui]

a) Not if your opponent has Propaganda & Vedalken Shackles =P Jokes aside, 16 Zombies are > than 15 and bla, but a win is still a win, and you argue with "overkilling" in point 3 while making more Zombies can also be "non-needed" overkill.

e) It's not overkill in the like of Stalking Vengeance or such, where you waste ressources like a DR and a card slot. That said, Breakthrough then seems like overkill also.

Gonna address what I think I have relevant points to address only:

a) It's not overkill to get a moeba when you need that extra creature for a DR. It happens. Also, sometimes you need one more Therapy and that moeba will do. Moeba is not an overkill here.

e) It's too much effort in the wrong direction, then, because you making your spell more easily castable is more relevant than drawing 1 more card.

Bottomline: Brainstorm is better than people give it credit for, and casting it out of Cephalid should seal the deal.

[GGoober]

With Misstep out of the format, the only issue I see with the DDD plan is:

1) It's much slower in a growing field of returning fast combo
2) Black discard will see more play without Misstep. Although Hymn is possibly good news for Dredge (lol), a Thoughtseize/Duress that connects could really timewalk the DDD plan.

[Gui]

@ Mojeh
I agree that PImp/Tribe is great against GY hate (as I've stated several time), but I disagree about them being more valuable than Phantasmagorian in the Tendrils combo matchup (I'm assuming you are talking about Tendrils). Your goto plan should still be DDD, land->draw against combo. It is your most consistent chance (by a long shot when you look at the math) to be explosive.

BTW, here's a question 4eak
Even though the chances of being explosive increases if you DDD against combo, considering a 8-dork list, isn't the fact that you are playing one turn before your opponent more relevant than the increased chance you got of having a good hand?
Besides, what is the chance of being explosive after 1 or 2 mulligans? Because in DDD you don't have the chance to Mull, but with dorks you can.

I've just made a simulation on this matter, and with 1x mulligan the chance of getting a explosive hand is already better (57% opposed to 53% from DDD strategy), but neither is much convincing, since ~50% isn't a impressive mark.

Still, dork list is still better against combo, since it can go first with technically the same chance of going explosive if you consider mulligan, and a somewhat better chance (63%) if you consider mull to 5.


ERRATA: Forgot to consider therapy as a discard outlet, increasing the chances.
ERRATA2: I should double-check my codes before posting...

[4eak]

I'm in class right now, so I can't give a long response.

I'm very excited to see your code (making monte carlo simulations of magic problems is a hobby of mine as well). I think it may be complicated by the fact that even a DDD-based deck, when it knows it needs to race, is also perfectly capable of mulliganing.

Also, I want to see the lists you've compared.


peace,
4eak

[Gui]

I'm in class right now, so I can't give a long response.

I'm very excited to see your code (making monte carlo simulations of magic problems is a hobby of mine as well). I think it may be complicated by the fact that even a DDD-based deck, when it knows it needs to race, is also perfectly capable of mulliganing.

Also, I want to see the lists you've compared.


peace,
4eak

Sure, I can mail you the code if you want. Some parts of it are messy, but OO makes it easy to read. If you understand Java you are good to go. Every input is hardcoded, tho.

I've used standard german dredge to test the mulligan strategy, and your DDD list to test, well, the DDD strategy.
It can get more complicated, entering on a higher detail level, as for which hands could be mull'd with DDD. So I just gone with no mull, since you are already behind by a turn, and with mull you'd be behind for 2 turns. It's more like a "Godhand" test.

But I could have forgotten some other detail, I'm at work atm, so I shouldn't be simulating mtg. xD

[jrw1985]

What does DDD stand for? Is it Draw, Discard, Dredge? I've been wondering for a while now.

[Mojeh]

@Gui and 4eak

We also have to keep in mind, that with the dorks, our Coliseum seems much more faster, and we are also allowed to take more mulligans without being timewalked.

[Gui]

What does DDD stand for? Is it Draw, Discard, Dredge? I've been wondering for a while now.

Yeah, it means you are going to discard your first card by drawing to 8 cards.

[Izor]

Wow, reading through the last 3 pages of this thread it's amazing to see how only 10 flex slots in a deck can have infinite options to fill them. At least though, it seems that most people actualy agree on a basic core of the deck, which already makes up for 51 maindeck and several sideboard slots.

This is the core:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise/Tarnished Citadel (depending on whether you want to draw or play first)

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Drkblast

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
3 Ichorid

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

//51 cards

9 Flex slots:

4 Phantasmagorian
1 Golgari Thug
1 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe/Firestorm
4 Street Wraith/Brainstorm/Gitaxian Probe


It's amazing how those 9 flex slots can turn the whole play strategy around. My personal opinion is that 4 PImps should be in there, but other than that I'll have to do a lot of goldfishing and playtesting...

[Vandalize]

About the Winds of Change versus Brainstorm discussion:

Brainstorm is an instant, and like Cephalid Coliseum, can be played EOT (or in response to something, like a fetch). That's really nice when you opponent tap out for something like an Tarmogoyf or a Dark Confidant. Cephalid Coliseum has gotten worse since the ban of Mental Misstep, because Stifle is going to appear in every Tempo based deck. Jesus, even Stiflenought is back from the grave. And they've got a pretty hot new toy: Snapcaster Mage.

Moreover, dredging EOT means you can find Ichorids and activate them in your next upkeep, which is freaking huge.

But, if you really want raw power, then Winds of Change is probably the best Draw spell as Breakthrough 5-8.

[joemauer]

My understanding is that brainstorm/winds of change is for the storm combo only. Right?

So with that said I think WoC is the winner here. Dredges more=good versus storm.

Storm likes to SB in REB & pyroblast against us. Which card would you rather have here?

Neither WoC or brainstorm can discard, you will most likely have to use imp/tribe with either meaning you will have rainbow mana. Fringe case would be Cephalid as your only land with careful study+ WoC/BS.

I hate Feldman's fearless dredge article, but he was right about WoC versus other combo.

[gamer4life]

My understanding is that brainstorm/winds of change is for the storm combo only. Right?

So with that said I think WoC is the winner here. Dredges more=good versus storm.

Storm likes to SB in REB & pyroblast against us. Which card would you rather have here?

Neither WoC or brainstorm can discard, you will most likely have to use imp/tribe with either meaning you will have rainbow mana. Fringe case would be Cephalid as your only land with careful study+ WoC/BS.

I hate Feldman's fearless dredge article, but he was right about WoC versus other combo.

u hate the article?????? there was nothing bad about it,lol. it did alot of new dredge players good.



The Source requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Adjust your posting habits.

-4eak

[joemauer]

Hate may have been too strong of a word. I did not appreciate how Feldman's article was supposed to be a basic, entry level dredge deck when actuality it was a metagame designed deck. It was quite misleading in that regard.

The article wasn't as definitive as it was made out to be.

[kabards]

usually during sideboarding how many SB's do you usually put in and put out? ex. vs Aggro Zoo and UW Stoneblade? im just new here piloting dredge

The Source requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Adjust your posting habits.

-zilla

[264505]

@ kabards-I don't think it was any better than Max McCall's article. The 2 he did were excellent intros to the deck.