When Jace is popular and Batterskull is not, Maelstrom Pulse is great in this deck. I was at the point where I was running Putrefy in it's slot to kill Batterskulls and just chalking up the Jace matchup, but now I think with the probably decline of U/W Stoneforge, I'll go back to the Pulses so that I have noncreature ways to kill Jace. I lost two matches at a tournament last week because I couldn't beat a resolved Jace until he couldn't bounce my stalker anymore, which sucked, because bounced stalkers are really, really, painful.
J
After some testing, the new Liliana definitely deserves a slot in the deck, at least as a singleton. Her versatility makes her very appealing over other removal options, because she's pretty damn good in every sort of matchup.
I actually found her +1 to be incredibly helpful against combo and control, because you can just toss situational cards that are dead in the late game while the opponent is gorced to drop their StPs or High Tides theyve been sandbagging. And if they decide to drop a creature, well... I haven't had an opportunity to use her ultimate, because like Jace, if she gets to that point youve probably already won the game.
I had similar experiences with her. So far I gave her 2 slots, but did not cut instant speed removal for it. Would have to test it, however I think she is only really good if she lives and if there are 2 creatures on our opponents side (and we can't block) she is not good at all. The 4 removal spots help to keep the board empty. Removal in T1 and 2 is necessary versus a lot of decks and with our gameplan of dazing and wasting liliana is a vast majority of the time not a turn 3 play...
Has anyone considered/tested Delver of Secrets? They talk a lot about for canadian treshhold.
Much worse in defense than goyf and pretty fragile, but i feel much better in offense. In case no thoughtseize/stifle is there, he is a nice first turn play, that attacks with 50% chance for 3 in the air on turn 2. If you have stifle/thoughtseize, he can played turn 2, where goyf still has to sit in our hand.
Has anyone considered/tested Delver of Secrets? They talk a lot about for canadian treshhold.
Much worse in defense than goyf and pretty fragile, but i feel much better in offense. In case no thoughtseize/stifle is there, he is a nice first turn play, that attacks with 50% chance for 3 in the air on turn 2. If you have stifle/thoughtseize, he can played turn 2, where goyf still has to sit in our hand.
One of the few flippers that doesn't suck, IMHO. Can't be transformed back, and Brainstorm/Ponder set him up like a champ.
I don't play Team America, so I'm curious what you would take out in favor of Delver of Secrets? Nimble Mongoose?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
CA players seem to be cutting Goose for Delver, yes, but some argue that Goose is better than Goyf.Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I don't see the point of him in TA, however. He is on paper worse than both Goyf and Tombstalker, and if aggro decks in the form of Zoo and Goblins come back in full force, a 3/2 flying dude is going to spend all of its time getting burned by Bolts and Lavamancers.
I haven't tested him, however, the only real upside to him that I can see is that he pitches to FoW and he also makes it possible to cut Goyf and green completely, thereby enhancing the manabase of the deck.
So what's the consensus on Team America vs. BUG Tempo with Bob?
Bob still seems good. Jace will probably still be good... which makes Stalker worse.
I wrote an article on this prior to MM's release into being legal and playable: The Future of America, Team.
I've never much liked Bob in this shell... but I don't quite know how to feel right now. All I want to do is cast Stifle.
Even when i went Ubg control vs Team america, i didn't play Bob. The way i see it, is blind flipping a Jace or a Force of Will is no good. The Ubg list that i'm talking about is:
8Black
3 x Dismember
1 x Go for the Throat
4 x Hymn to Tourach
21 Blue
4 x Ancestral Vision
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Vendilion Clique
7 Gold
3 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
24 Land
2 x Bayou
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
2 x Polluted delta
3 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland
Ancestral Vision does just as good if not better job than Bob will. Sure this was during the lovely Mental Misstep time, and i have since gone back to a more traditional tempo version as i don't think the meta at the moment is slow enough for vision.
Your opponents should have hard time getting to 4 mana and resolving jace when you have dazes, wastes and stifles..
Liked your article very much back then!
I agree - Stifle is much stronger now and therefore I want to go full blown for the tempo plan. Daze & Wasteland do really not work well with jace. And running 20 non-basic lands can not reliably support jace in my opinion. So as someone said many pages before, altough jace is obviously a very powerful card it is like fitting a square into a circle. I play 2 liliana now instead of 2 jace. She is unfortunately not able to provide the same long game CA/wincon as jace, but she comes down earlier, also has a lasting effect which can make a difference and having additional removal versus aggro, but also a card that does something versus combo and control fits nicely in TA strategy.
I feel that, while Bob is an impressive creature and obviously extremely good if you stick him and protect him long enough to get going, in the fast-paced metagame filled with Aggro decks that I, and others with me, predict for the near future, I'd much rather be casting 5/5 fliers that decks like Zoo will often have difficulties dealing with, than 2/1's that can, and will, be Bolted, Lavamancer'd etc.
Also, props on the article, I think that all of it, aside from the MM parts, can and probably will be relevant to the deck in the near future, and especially people less familiar with the deck will have a good read. Well done, I liked it a lot!
Anyone have any experience with snapcaster yet? I fooled around a bit with liliana which seemed decent but unspectacular
Goddik, Drew Levin posted an article on SCG this week that had a list with 3 Snapcaster Mages in the main (along with a variety of instant speed removal, including 1 Dismember and 1 Ghastly Demise in the 1cmc slots). He said it would be the key to help beating the Merfolk matchup.
To be honest, I'm not so sure, at least in TA. In Magical Fantasy Land, sure, they'll attack with 3 fishes and you'll Ghastly Demise one, Flash it back with a Snapcaster to kill the other, and block/trade with the last attacker. Too often in my testing though Snapcaster sat around looking dumb in my hand. It also didn't help that it seems like a lot of 'Folk players are adding Kiras to the main.
The card is very good, but I think what would really push it over the top is if we got a solid 1cmc black removal spell that isn't as situational as the options currently available. I also wonder if it'd be good to run some number of Spell Pierces in the main alongside Snapcaster. At this point, you may want to look at running a different deck to better utilize the card -- I tested a straight U/R tempo thresh build with 4 Delver of Secrets, 3 Grim Lavamancer, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique, 4 Lightning Bolt and the rest of the typical cards and it was VERY strong. Of course it wrecked Merfolk even further with the REB/Pyrob lasts and Firespouts in the board.
Pernicious Deed still seems key to handling this matchup. (Of course, you can be like me and face the luckiest Merfolk player in the world who in game 2 drops a T1 Relic, T2 Pithing Needle naming Deed... true story.)
edit: Before anyone else points it out:
:D
Last edited by wcm8; 09-29-2011 at 02:01 PM.
Do you really blame him?
It's funny, because Jace and Liliana have an affair in Agents of Artifice.
So what, now we're cutting him from our decks and we're also getting it down with his ex? That seems harsh, frankly :)
2x jace got the boot for 2x liliana in my list. Also dropped green. Best direction this deck's gone in years.
This post is painfully thin. You can do better (especially in the DTB forum). Verbal warning. - Bardo
EDIT: I agree with Bardo, this post was rather lacking in the content department. Here's my list:
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
// Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
// Removal
4 Dismember
2 Liliana
// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs (tarns might be better)
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
// Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Submerge
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
Last edited by naarou; 09-30-2011 at 08:15 PM.
Naarou could you post your list? I was thinking about bringing it to UB with sinkholes for a bit, but pernicious deed is just so damn good in fixing match ups.
What do people think about Vendilion Clique in the new meta? Is it still worth running in TA? I've heard a lot of people say Clique was geared to the MM meta and others claim its their favorite creature in the game.
I edited in my list.
Clique is still good as a 1-2 of. It still has all the same things going for it: it's blue, evasive, high power, and disrupts. I would always include at least one for threat variety.
Delver is also pretty ridiculously good in my testing. I encourage everyone here to at least give him a shot in goyf's slot. The thing about delver that nobody realizes is even when you don't have a cantrip to guarantee a flip, he still helps filter through your deck with the aid of fetches. Top card a piece of removal in game one against storm? Shuffle it away and draw a hopefully better card. The fact that it has evasion, is 1cmc, is BLUE (pitches to force... always relevant) and has the same power as a clique makes this guy a huge asset. You don't even have to drop green if you still want to play Pernicious Deed to make use of this little guy.
I think the removal suite of 4 dismember 2 liliana is pretty well rounded too. There really isn't much besides a late game KOTR that gets around dismember. Liliana also locks up games something fierce. I think she fits beautifully in this deck.
I'm an aggro player and I've got this to say about not playing with green:
if you woudn't play green, I think you never can win against aggro (without goyfs)
You can't hold everything with counter and removal...
Also Nimble Mongoose is quite a bomb against aggro, just saying (I know this ain't tempothresh but yeah)
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