Chant is a blow-out in this match-up, let Ari go off, in response to Infernal Tutor, Chant you? It's definitely in TES's favor.Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy
The main advantages of ANT/TNT are the more stable manabase and the high cantrip count which makes Cabal Ritual strong by Turns 3-4. It also runs more Duress effects which can be useful against permanent based hate.
The main advantages of TES are its stronger Ad Nauseams, higher threat density, and faster combo. Orim's Chant is stronger than Thoughtseize when you need to control the stack, if you've already committed into a rainbow landbase. Since neither deck attacks the opposing mana base, and all relevant disruption occurs on the stack, Orim's Chant is a huge advantage in this pseudomirror.
I don't disagree with that I just don't think that one match is proof of anything like that poster was implying.
I didn't mean to imply that match showed that TES is better (thought I think it is) but just because its funny that the deck Lax says is full of bad cards and training wheels is the one to knock him out.
On topic, anyone know Jason Golembiewski or is he a sourcer? I'm hoping to see what his thoughts were on PiF
He made it to the semis but lost to a Reanimator deck 2-1. Resulting in a 3rd place finish
From the top of my head in big tournaments:
- decider game for top8 in GP Columbus: Bryant Cook vs Ari Lax 2-1
- GP Madrit semifinal: David Do Anh vs Tomaharu Saito 2-0 (ANT with W vs UB ANT)
You can find a lot more in reports here, in the ANT thread or on storm board. Chants and Silences are bonkers in this matchup. Not only to stop combo but also to simply time walk them while making a big turn. They have nothing to stop TES turn.
Chant is basically a psuedo force of will for a single white mana in the storm mirror. As well as being a time walk in the combo mirror if you're facing straight UB ANT. TES is definitely favored against normal ANT without a white splash, which I haven't seen in ANT for quite a while the last time was when David Do Anh splashed white at Madrid. On top of that, TES is just faster than ANT could ever dream of being since they run 12 cantrips with only 6 tutors, 2 of which are jank (grim tutor I'm looking at you). You can test the UB ANT v. 5c TES MU all day long, but TES will win more games I can say that with confidence because chant in the storm combo mirror is literally the best card other than a god draw on the play that wins you the game turn 1 but who doesn't know that.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
That seriously makes me sad. Another bitch playing Reanimator wins .... its such a durrrrrrrr kind of deck. It really bothers me watching all of these BS decks go so far. And for the record, that dude playing TES, looks exactly like Jason Dohring from an amazing show called Veronica Mars. Regardless, I can't believe that guys' luck didn't hold up. He was running so well .... and take that luck and mix with a combo deck ... almost unstoppable. Almost .... 3rd is respectable. But I still can't believe he didn't board out EtW in the storm mirror. If I were in Ari's place I would be talking mad shit after the EtW for 28. The card is TERRIBLE in the storm combo mirror, can't believe he kept it in AND managed to win on a fluke. I mean, I have actually won that wayagainst aggro but ..... in the combo mirror, EtW just sucks.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Meh, I kept two hands I felt were fairly solid at killing fast through a Chant and he had two hands that killed faster. Had I had a Bob-Duress hand game two I likely had it. I'm life time 1-3 in the match up, but I honestly can say I don't mind it and don't think ANT is significantly behind, if at all. It is possible I over valued turn two kills hands and should have mulliganed more aggressively as I would against Belcher, especially G2 when I have Bobs, but realistically if either of those hands his Infernal Tutor is a Burning Wish he probably loses.
I would imagine we'll be seeing more Gaddock Teegs and Cannonists in the coming weeks. People will probably try to fight back combo's large numbers at Indy.
When he revealed ETW my first thought was "WTF! HE LEFT THAT IN?!?!" luckily he got there though.
There wasn't much you could do, you were goldfished two games in a row. You had two options and they were mulligan into Duress/Thoughtsieze or go for a turn two unprotected against a Chant deck. Either way, it wasn't looking good.
But what you could've done was keep a little more composure after the match, I understand it was an intense moment and whatnot, but c'mon. Throwing the infernal tutor? They (people commenting on SCGLive) we're already crucifying AJ Sacher for being immature and whiney after losing his top 8 match, while you may not have know this, it doesn't look good to be apart of that.
I watched your first feature match and you played well there, I didn't notice any mistakes off the top of my head. But I was listening to Brad and Gavin and they mentioned that you keep bringing up this training wheels argument. It's something I haven't really heard of before SCG's popularity (Maybe it's a Regional thing), I understand if you don't like a certain card choice, I dislike a lot of things people do to TES. But to call TES and red in storm "Training Wheels" doesn't give a good reason to why they're bad or shouldn't be played, it comes off more that you don't know how to defend your position and you may not know what you're talking about. While this may not be the case, I'm just saying, drop the Training Wheels comments because I know you're a smart guy and a good player. Show that.
I believe this too, but then again, we already have four sideboard cards we bring in for these match-ups. In my local metagame this is what I deal with week-in and week-out. BANT with maindeck Gaddeck Teegs for Green Sun Zenith and other ridiculousness that others don't have to deal with. It's actually why I started switching the deck I play every week between the 7-8 that I own.
Gratz on the finish, Ari. Really nice to see Storm finishing where it belongs again. Just a couple of things:
1)What are your thoughts on Xantid Swarm? You left if out of your board. Was that a meta call? Personally I have generally been impressed by its performance.
2) Can you give me some advice on Dark Confidant and the extra copies of Tendrils. please? How have they worked out for you? Which matches did you bring them in against, and what did you side out? I used to run the extra Tendrils against Landstill (was great), but that deck is non-existant now. Bob has been hot and cold for me, but is sometimes very good in some MU's.
3) How would you change your board now, given the hate that's expected to show up?
4) No Chrome Mox? Though I know it sucks unless you are Ad Nauseam-ing. Most of your lists ran 2 previously, iirc. Why the change?
Thanks.
EDIT: Yeah, I know. Pretty much the wrong thread. The Mods can move my post, if they so desire.
Last edited by Solar Ice; 10-03-2011 at 03:55 PM.
Discussion of ANT belongs here.
Relax, Killer. You sound like the "homebrew crowd" bitching about net decks. Reanimator can be a brutal deck, it's got a lot of disruption and the potential for some very fast wins.
The first Indy this year, I lost to Reanimator in round 8, knocking me completly out of contention for T8. Game 1 he was on the play and pushed an Iona in through double Force on turn 2 (my turn 1). Game 2 was a little slower, but it was still turn 4 or so and again through double Force. Do I think he got lucky? Of course. But hey, that happens. He was a nice guy and he deserved the win.He was running so well .... and take that luck and mix with a combo deck ... almost unstoppable.
I have actual no idea what you are talking about here. Please describe. Jason and I play at the same local store, the match was chill, and there was nothing afterwards other than wishing him good luck and discussing whether he wanted to split top 4 or just play it out for the $. We were even joking about how instead of Dark Rit he should have Brainstormed so he could possibly have found a BW/IT and gone for a Grapeshot kill. Was it when I binned his Infernal G2 to maintain correct graveyard order and clear the board/camera field for a giant stack of Ad Naus cards?
Also, to be fair to AJ (though half of it was probably him), the Reanimator guy was pretty tilting to lose to. He Duressed me and took Tendrils when I had 2 lands in play and LED, Dark Rit, Infernal, Ad Naus, Cabal Rit, and a 3rd land in hand......
I don't think I ever said the Training Wheels thing. IIRC, that was actually Adrian Sullivan and/or JVL while Liam was in Top 8 of LA, and obviously they are fucking retarded. I have no idea how that quote got attributed to me.I watched your first feature match and you played well there, I didn't notice any mistakes off the top of my head. But I was listening to Brad and Gavin and they mentioned that you keep bringing up this training wheels argument. It's something I haven't really heard of before SCG's popularity (Maybe it's a Regional thing), I understand if you don't like a certain card choice, I dislike a lot of things people do to TES. But to call TES and red in storm "Training Wheels" doesn't give a good reason to why they're bad or shouldn't be played, it comes off more that you don't know how to defend your position and you may not know what you're talking about. While this may not be the case, I'm just saying, drop the Training Wheels comments because I know you're a smart guy and a good player. Show that.
My argument against TES has never been skill. If anything, I agree that TES has some more difficult lines, but feel that the added difficulty isn't due to additional power and more so just the inherent issues with the 5C mana base. My issues are
1. I hate where the deck falls against Waste/Daze decks and Waste/Hymn, especially Fish. The 5C mana base makes it easier for a bunch of marginal disruption to add up, especially when you need WBR on the last turn to kill through a Force or similar.
2. ANT plays out much stronger going long with 12 cantrips and 17 lands.
3. Drawing multiple BW's is fairly miserable. It's not like IT where you can just burn a turn and the extra one to get another Ritual. It just clunkers around, and the best case is you use it to enable a IGG kill.
4. I don't actually like Dim Ret or not having a sideboard at all, and the only thing I like that BW adds is access to EtW.
5. I like the more reliable IGG kill. It makes it a lot harder for Zoo to steal matches from you with quick draws and won die rolls.
6. I hate Chant and love perfect info and being able to preemptively use my disruption.
I did not expect Reanimator to be big. That deck is a reason to switch, as the increased ability to just jam on T1/2 is important there.
I also didn't expect MD hate bears to be big. If that happens the increased T1/2 is key as is the MD access to removal.
What I did expect was a lot of people playing their Misstep decks and subbing Spell Pierce/Snare/Daze in and more Zoo with Wasteland, which is a world I want to play basics and Cabal Rituals in.
I'm unware of what was said, ect, StarCityGames doesn't have sound for the people playing the match. But after he resolved Ad Nauseam, he Duress'd you, you brainstormed, he targeted infernal and you literally through the card. Even the commentators said something, it's not a huge deal or anything.
I noticed in the post-tournament talk that he was a little bit of a weird guy with his over excessive laughter. Bad players made bad choices, but what can you do. Sometimes in Legacy the cards just play themselves and regardless of how bad the player is they just get there. AJ's choice of getting on Twitter, then bashing his opponent is where he went wrong and was just a bit childish. I was just saying you didn't want to be associated with that because it was at the same time and you seemed to be losing your cool.
Alright, well you appear to be the easy target I suppose.
Having more raw power is a reason to play TES over ANT. We have to give up something in order to accomplish this, it’s been a problem with combo decks since the beginning. TES plays all of the best cards that the format has to offer for combo, we’re greedy. Apart of doing this is playing a 5c manabase that doesn’t play basics.
My issues are…
1. Waste/Daze decks aren’t as rough as people make them out to be, I sit across from them and am completely comfortable. Especially Merfolk and other decks of that nature packing Daze, Pierce/Snare, Force, Stifle package. I can’t count how many times my opponents were shocked that I had blown them out after they wasted me turn one and I went off turn 2 with protection. It’s apart of that raw power in having additional fast mana.
2. We’re combo decks, we don’t want to be going long. We want to win before our opponent can feel comfortable. We want that person across the table on the edge of their seat. I also feel that additional lands can also be troublesome due to being unable to become hellbent. As for the cantrips, cantrip heavy hands are nuisances. You never know how they’re going to turn out and they give the opponent time to find/resolve their hate.
3. Multiple Burning Wishes isn’t exactly what we hope for but it’s no worse than drawing both of your Grim Tutors. Burning Wish can always find Thoughtsieze, Empty the Warrens, Past in Flames, and Diminishing Returns.
4. Well that’s a personal preference, I happen to love Diminishing Returns. It allows you to be able to win in a lot of circumstances where you didn’t deserve to be in the game. As for not having a sideboard, I’ve seen ANT sideboards. They’re no more stellar than ours, often times they’re stretching for cards that are barely playable like Rebuild/Hurkyl’s.
5. We have a pretty reliable IGG/Past in Flames kill as well.
6. Chant steals games/rounds, don’t be so quick to judge it. It’s the best protection spell in the format negating Spellsnares/Stifles/Mindbreak Traps and other tricks. Chant forcing to make your opponent to react has much more value than people give it credit for.
7. Our Ad Nauseams are usually better due to additional artifact mana and a lower curve, making us less reliant on secondary storm engines.
8. We get to Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish, Past in Flames, Burning Wish, Grapeshot for 60.
Well the last one isn't all that relevant (it is awesome though), but you get the idea.
Checked that one off my list.
Also you forgot we get access to Xantid if Merfolk becomes really popular.
Since I've been having a hard time with dealing with hate-bears recently I had adopted 2 Deathmark. I miss Xantid though, especially in a meta that lacks many CB-Top decks. So for someone who is addicted to Xantid Swarm, what do you guys think of this sb?
1 Deathmark
1 Chains of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Pyroblast
2 Xantid
1 Thoughtseize
6 Wish Targets (DR, IGG, Spree, ToA, EtW, Grapeshot)
Chains is acting like the second Deathmark as a 1cc answer to hate-bears. Is losing Truths power too much? Not many people have dropped Chalice on me lately, but I do nab double-hate somtimes. Just food for thought.
Edit: Are you guys bring in Seize vs control?
your seize actually belongs to the wishtargets.
actually I wondered what you think about the new bounce: silent departure.
It's not a permanent answer, but does it's job for combo.
Bryant, I agree on 1, 3 (though 2x BW is more likely than 2x Grim and Grim often chains for Storm count), 4 (though Rebuild is the nut and my Dim. Ret. experience is likely colored by idiots leaning too hard on the card), 5, 6, 7 and 8. 2 I fundamentally disagree with, but I agree there are definite merits to just jamming it.
There's a lot I could really say about various pros and cons and bog down the thread, but I'll leave it at this: TES has a larger range of play than ANT, while ANT just jams the same thing every game. It just happens that what ANT does beats Fish, Zoo, Bant, Landstill, etc etc. TES is good at beating those decks but leaves the possibility of failure against certain things higher, but also increases the odds of beating random bullshit that ANT has no real game plan against ie. turn two Iona with Force back up, random Stifles out of a Doomsday deck, Leyline of Sanctity, etc. Depending on where things go, especially if Snapcaster and Stifle team up more, I could see myself switching. If they go back to Fish, Bant, Zoo, Goblins, etc, I see no reason to change.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
