[Deck] The Rock

[berry]

The question is not of SFM vs Moxen but SFM vs GSZ.

GSZ is a good card.

I've been running both with and without Moxen for a while and have nothing against cutting it for the right reasons.

That Reanimator and storm-combo were the most played lists is a fact, obviously this does not mean it's the only one you will face.

What I'd like to hear about is:
1. In what way do you feel the GSZ-list would falter against the faster aggro-decks (let's say ZO, new horizons and... goblins?).
2. What made him run so good vs storm, with a list that doesn't bolster much stuff against the decks in question.

[AggroSteve]

i would think the tidehollow skullers in the sideboard would help a lot against storm, teeg most of the time would catch a slaughter pact, where tidehollow skuller can not be targeted by it

in addiction of taking a card from them, tidehollow skuller even presents a bit of a clock, and if supplemented with equipment (SFM-package) i believe he can really be helpfull against combo

congrats on the finish btw.

[berry]

I agree that Tidehollow's seem like a nice answer. Would work decently with ET too.

[muscleb]

Yeah, grats on the finish.

I would love to hear how the Stoneforge actually played out in games. Where there alot of aggro, and the "slow" play of stoneforge didn't get you in trouble against combo.

Now is the time to play Bojuka Bog main with so many players chanting the snapcaster mantra.

[sdematt]

Glad to see people support me in not playing Mox Diamonds. I knew I was on to something :)

Congrats on the finish. Jaco, maybe we should work together, jeez. It's not like you don't know me :P

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

Did 4x SFM ever feel like too much with only 2 equips to grab? I always feel like she's a miserable top-deck when I've already got my equipment in hand or in play.

Also, how to stop Flash-less Hulk combo? I feel like that whole chain of events should be disruptible to some extent with an StP. Does exiling the sac outlet in response to the Reveillark trigger work?

[sdematt]

Extirpate in response to the return from graveyard trigger also works, but most of the time, you'll have some stuff Cabal Therapied. I'd attempt to keep Extirpate on top and use Top to flip it when the moment is right.

Also, remember that they can just Natural Order into Protenitus, so don't forget to bring some Progenitus hate from the board, as well.

Grave-hate in general hurts them very much.

-Matt

[Richard Cheese]

Extirpate in response to the return from graveyard trigger also works, but most of the time, you'll have some stuff Cabal Therapied. I'd attempt to keep Extirpate on top and use Top to flip it when the moment is right.

Also, remember that they can just Natural Order into Protenitus, so don't forget to bring some Progenitus hate from the board, as well.

Grave-hate in general hurts them very much.

-Matt

Yeah the situation with Extirpate was more clear, I was just wondering if a single StP is enough to buy you another turn, or if they still have some line of play available that I'm missing (assuming only 1 sac outlet in play).

[sdematt]

I think a well-timed STP can possibly screw up the combo, I'm just trying to figure out when... :P

-Matt

[warai]

I helped Fisher design this deck, and I'll give you guys a brief rundown on the manabase. Both he and I hate Mox Diamond in these decks, where you really just want all of your spells to provide maximum value, because you're not doing anything unfair in Legacy to begin with, unlike High Tide, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Ad Nauseam, etc. If you're going to play a fair deck you need to make every spell count, and Mox Diamond is the absolute worst topdeck in these style decks.

The problem with the typical reaction from a tournament won by Reanimator is that "the whole metagame is Reanimator and Ad Nauseam." It's not. Legacy is super diverse, and "durdling around with" Stoneforge helps crush all of the aggro decks that you'd otherwise have sketchy game against. Again, the thinking is get maximum value out of each card you play.

Fisher went 3-0 vs Reanimator at the SCG, 1-0 vs Chris VanMeter with Hive Mind, 1-0 vs Doomsday, 0-1 vs the TES player who made top 8 (after mulling to 5 in both games I believe), and his only other loss was to Elves combo that made Top 16 I believe. I can't remember what his other two wins were against.

There's a couple of slots that should be changed around with Reanimator in mind, but that's what evolution of the deck is for each week depending on what you think you're going to face. Just remember, when in doubt, play good cards and not Mox Diamond.

You play Mox Diamond in order to get nuts draw with T1 Hymn or T1 Confidant.

[sdematt]

The sometimes nuts draw, the sometimes awkward hand with a turn 1 awesome, turn 2 through X stall play.

-Matt

[2Rach]

@Fisher's list:
Why no Canopies and/or Maze?

[2Rach]

@JACO:
Why no Canopies and/or Maze?

[damionblackgear]

I think a well-timed STP can possibly screw up the combo, I'm just trying to figure out when... :P

-Matt

You can aim the STP at the sac outlet with the reanimate trigger on the stack. Not really many other openings before that and you have to either rfg the sac outlet or the hulk after that. If you just kill it, they'll just finish going off.

Edit: or just before the end step trigger.

[makochman]

You play Mox Diamond in order to get nuts draw with T1 Hymn or T1 Confidant.

In my experience, turn 1 Bob is very risky. I believe the best turn one plays enabled by Mox are (like you said) Hymn, and Thoughtseize followed up by Top. A turn 1 Top can provide just as much virtual card advantage as Bob, it doesn't hurt you, and is much more difficult to remove.

@JACO

Of course Mox is a bad topdeck, but it can often be filtered out with Top. (BTW, if you're worried about bad topdecks, why are you playing 25 lands and only 2 Top? I'm not criticizing the build, only the "topdeck" argumentation.) I would only drop Mox it if I were playing a GSZ variant or a Vial variant.

[KobeBryan]

In my experience, turn 1 Bob is very risky. I believe the best turn one plays enabled by Mox are (like you said) Hymn, and Thoughtseize followed up by Top. A turn 1 Top can provide just as much virtual card advantage as Bob, it doesn't hurt you, and is much more difficult to remove.

@JACO

Of course Mox is a bad topdeck, but it can often be filtered out with Top. (BTW, if you're worried about bad topdecks, why are you playing 25 lands and only 2 Top? I'm not criticizing the build, only the "topdeck" argumentation.) I would only drop Mox it if I were playing a GSZ variant or a Vial variant.

Thats what i'm saying. anything above 23 lands without mox is asking for bad topdecks.

[Seems Good]

In my experience, turn 1 Bob is very risky. I believe the best turn one plays enabled by Mox are (like you said) Hymn, and Thoughtseize followed up by Top. A turn 1 Top can provide just as much virtual card advantage as Bob, it doesn't hurt you, and is much more difficult to remove.

@JACO

Of course Mox is a bad topdeck, but it can often be filtered out with Top. (BTW, if you're worried about bad topdecks, why are you playing 25 lands and only 2 Top? I'm not criticizing the build, only the "topdeck" argumentation.) I would only drop Mox it if I were playing a GSZ variant or a Vial variant.

x2 to that whole post. The advantage gained by an explosive turn 1 land, mox, hymn x% of the time far outweighs the disadvantage of occasionally drawing into a mox y% of the time IMO..which shouldn't happen that much if you're playing 3x top.

[Nelis]

I would argue the opposite. The disadvantage of drawing a mox later in the game OR have an openingshand with only a mox and one land outweighs the advantage of an ocassional turn 1 Hymn. I've never understood running moxen in a 23 land build. If you consistently want to go mox, land, hymn, you basically need 4 moxen and more land than 23 but this means running less spells that actually do something.

[damionblackgear]

I think there's too much emphasis on Hymning on turn 1. If that's all people want to do, why aren't they playing Eva Green, Old School Dead Guy, or even the O.G. Suicide Black? At least with those decks, you could more consistently play a hymn on turn 1 alongside a Duress or Thoughseize.

I've kept the Moxen in my list because they allowed with an additional way to achieve color consistency and a stronger base vs Moon/Wasteland effects. Even if Dragon Stompy isn't around as much anymore (if at all, to be honest I haven't seen it in months) that doesn't mean that other decks won't adopt moon effects. It's kind of like Dredge - You stop respecting it, you get rolled by it.

As far as there being 25 lands, so what? It's OK. It's not like it was bad. Just look at where the deck placed if you need proof. The fact that it placed so well in a combo heavy meta is amazing. My hat's off to that finish in that mata. The 2 lands + 1 spell could easily be Moxen. Or they could be something else. They opted for more lands to cast spells with. All of you should know how having your manabase hurts this deck (sometimes it seems like it hurts us more than others). Their fix was more lands.

Lastly, the late game topdecked Mox is terrible but, so is the land. That's why there are Bobs, Tops, and Libraries to help with those situations. Sometimes you do not have any of the before mentioned and you find out just how strong your own topdecks are compared to your opponent's. Lists with 25 lands will be a little more consistent than lists with 23 and 3 Moxen (that's 25;26 mana sources in each deck respectively). So they should have the edge but, that doesn't mean they won't just get flooded and have to outplay their opponent... wait we're playing rock. It's a decision tree based deck. We have to do that anyway.

[Seems Good]

I think there's too much emphasis on Hymning on turn 1. If that's all people want to do, why aren't they playing Eva Green, Old School Dead Guy, or even the O.G. Suicide Black? At least with those decks, you could more consistently play a hymn on turn 1 alongside a Duress or Thoughseize.

Because I want to play Turn 1 Hymn, then play SFM, KoTR, and/or Goyf, along with STP. This is the only deck that allows that. I find a lot of value in playing a balanced midrange deck that also has potential for explosiveness with Mox D.