Sure, here's the link to it:
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpB...hp?f=12&t=5977
Despite using google translator many things will remain unclear for sure, so feel free to ask about whatever you'd like to know, or just to comment anything.
The deck is absolutely viable without MM, but not in the same way it was until now. I mean, now it's hard to protect stoneforge from removal, you don't have the "oops I win" factor that you had when you got a hand with stoneforge, two land and two free counterspells. So now the idea is to play the deck as a true control deck and use stoneforge mystic as a finisher and/or as a fast tool to combat hard matchups for blue control such as merfolk. That was my idea, and that's the reason I play cards like counterspell and vedalken shackles.Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
I wanted to splash simply because I wanted a good sb against all the tier one decks, and just straight UW didn't give to me a good sb. First of all I wanted cards against the worst matchup of the deck, which I'm nearly sure it's zoo in their aggresive versions with loads of one drops, and wrath of god was too slow here. Second, I wanted good cards for any control mirror, and I wanted something better than dispel or spell pierce. And third, I wanted something against the two tier combo decks: Show and tell and hive mind. From all the splashes I liked red over the rest because of red elemental blast and firespout, which were exactly the cards I was looking for, so it was easy. And regarding the rest of the tiers I always had good cards to sb in against all of them, so I was really happy and red worked great for the time I've been playing the deck (my only two losses in the two tournaments I've played have been agains dredge and natural order bant). So, answering your question, red is the color you're looking for if you want to combat the weak matchups and the tier one decks. I'm pretty sure about that.
I'm really liking the list Frid and plan to try it out as this is what I was envisioning the direction Stone-Blade would go. Any changes you'd make to the list after the tournament?
Not for the moment, every card from the maindeck and sb was useful all day long except for the surgical extractions, but I feel more comfortable playing a split of 2 and 2 together with the relics instead of a straight 4x relics just because of the mages, so I will let it that way.
Next I want to test is a riptide laboratory in the slot of karakas, which seems reasonable, but karakas still produces white mana and laboratory colorless one, and just because of this I'm not very convinced at first glance. Also note that karakas is a nightmare for reanimator and show and tell decks, two tiers.
We'll see, I just wish I had a bit more time than three weeks to try to optimize the deck regarding the GP...
I was also thinking about Riptide since you'd have Tiago and Clique to bounce back but I definitely see the reason for Karakas over it, especially as I see Reanimator being a top tier deck for a while. Once I pickup some Snapcaster Mages I plan on giving your build a try. Were the peacekeepers worth it in the sideboard? Did you just bring them in against Reanimator/Tribal decks? Would you suggest them over something like Phantasmal Image or the like?
- Posting the deck list with tags!
// Lands
6 [B] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
- Is the deck workable without wasteland? I have never been a big fan of wasteland in a deck with 3+ colors and it seems like the deck can be mana intensive. I have a few questions for you:The deck is absolutely viable without MM, but not in the same way it was until now. I mean, now it's hard to protect stoneforge from removal, you don't have the "oops I win" factor that you had when you got a hand with stoneforge, two land and two free counterspells. So now the idea is to play the deck as a true control deck and use stoneforge mystic as a finisher and/or as a fast tool to combat hard matchups for blue control such as merfolk. That was my idea, and that's the reason I play cards like counterspell and vedalken shackles.
1. Which matchups truly gave you a difficult time pre-board?
2. Which matchups did you find to be easy post-MMS?
3. How much testing have you done in regards to Grim Lavamancer?
4. Which do you feel is better for this deck: Grim or Snappy?
Assuming zoo's actually the matchup you want to worry about, wouldn't a black splash for Perish in the board be a stronger call than Firespout? You'd basically be guaranteeing a kill on Goyf and Knight in exchange for losing the ability to take out Lavamancer, which seems strong, since Batterskull is kind of weak when a decent-sized Goyf or Knight is down. You'd also get some additional power against both NO Bant and NO RUG, and since NO Bant was one of your only losses, maybe it's worth shoring the matchup up?. You'd lose Pyroblasts too, but I'm not sure how great Pyro is here: you can force through countermagic and blow up opposing Jaces, maybe stop the occasional Snapcaster, but Pyros can't actually stop Reanimator or Storm from comboing out. Spell Pierce or Duress seem like they could be decent options there.
I'm also curious on your choice for MD Sword. It seems reasonable to have a pro-green sword, since Zoo's one of the matchups you really want to hit, but I don't know what pro blue does other than Merfolk, and the deck already seems like it absolutely annihilates Merfolk between Swords, Shackles, Pyros, Firespouts, Peacekeepers, and MD Stoneforge-->Batterskull, and I'd think Batterskull would be the go-to SFM target against Folk anyway.
The deck seems pretty mana-intensive between Stoneforge, Snapcasters, and Jaces, so I can see the untap trigger of Sword of Feast and Famine being quite useful, the discard trigger seems solid against combo/control, and pro-black has some fringe uses against opposing Batterskulls and the rare piece of removal.
Do you use Body and Mind because of the "make a guy" trigger? I wouldn't think the mill would matter much: stick SoBaM on a Snapcaster, swing with it and nothing else, and you've got them at 4 life by the time they're going to have to start worrying about their library.
So this is the deck i saw today. This deck is brutal for merfolk. Its NASTY. Fish doesn't even stand a chance
What list is the one you saw?
-Matt
Dragonfire Heart's
Ok, some points to answer:
I didn't play against reanimator at all, but in the case I had done it I wouldn't. Simply because if they reanimate their main target, which is jin gitaxias or whatever it's called, peacekeeper is like nothing and they will remain drawing 7 every turn until they get an out to it. I have had bad experiences with this some months ago. Against goblins it's a weak card because gempalm is uncountereable, so I don't bring it in neither, and against merfolk after much much testing I have noticed that I bring in so much removal that I don't want to bring peacekeepers in. This is since the printing of dismember for sure, which they always bring in post board. Peacekeepers were in my sb mainly because of GW zenith, which is easily the most played deck in Spain and probably Europe, and I have to lose yet a game post board against this deck when I have peacekeepers post board. They're a blowout for them, you just have to counter their 4 swords to plowshares and they can't win. And of course they're also good against emrakul and progenitus decks. But it's true that after losing twice against natural order bant I'm seriously debating in switching them for wrath of god.Were the peacekeepers worth it in the sideboard? Did you just bring them in against Reanimator/Tribal decks? Would you suggest them over something like Phantasmal Image or the like?
1. Maybe just NO bant because it's high density of big creatures (reliquary, goyf, 4 zenith) and their "oops I win" factor from the NO. I wouldn't say it was horrible, but I generally felt behind in the game. The player factor was also important, as I have never beaten this guy in tournament.1. Which matchups truly gave you a difficult time pre-board?
2. Which matchups did you find to be easy post-MMS?
3. How much testing have you done in regards to Grim Lavamancer?
4. Which do you feel is better for this deck: Grim or Snappy?
2. Talking about games preboard, rock style decks in general are really easy to beat. Post board merfolk is the easiest deck to beat ever.
3. and 4. My idea was to play lavamancers because I liked them and they were really good against GW, but then they printed the mage and I have to give it an edge. I didn't really want to play red pre board, and the mage worked great, so I will remain playing it. Lavamancer is a good option, no doubt about it, but mage is more versatile (it's good against all the field, I didn't sideboard them out in a single round) and it's in our main colors Uw.
Surely black was my second option splash, but in the end I wanted the red blasts for the control mirrors (which are much better than duress/thoughtseize because it's better to be reactive and make them spend mana) and the aggresive versions of zoo which gave me problems had loads of one drops, and the firespout was gold here.Assuming zoo's actually the matchup you want to worry about, wouldn't a black splash for Perish in the board be a stronger call than Firespout? You'd basically be guaranteeing a kill on Goyf and Knight in exchange for losing the ability to take out Lavamancer, which seems strong, since Batterskull is kind of weak when a decent-sized Goyf or Knight is down. You'd also get some additional power against both NO Bant and NO RUG, and since NO Bant was one of your only losses, maybe it's worth shoring the matchup up?. You'd lose Pyroblasts too, but I'm not sure how great Pyro is here: you can force through countermagic and blow up opposing Jaces, maybe stop the occasional Snapcaster, but Pyros can't actually stop Reanimator or Storm from comboing out. Spell Pierce or Duress seem like they could be decent options there.
I'm also curious on your choice for MD Sword. It seems reasonable to have a pro-green sword, since Zoo's one of the matchups you really want to hit, but I don't know what pro blue does other than Merfolk, and the deck already seems like it absolutely annihilates Merfolk between Swords, Shackles, Pyros, Firespouts, Peacekeepers, and MD Stoneforge-->Batterskull, and I'd think Batterskull would be the go-to SFM target against Folk anyway.
The deck seems pretty mana-intensive between Stoneforge, Snapcasters, and Jaces, so I can see the untap trigger of Sword of Feast and Famine being quite useful, the discard trigger seems solid against combo/control, and pro-black has some fringe uses against opposing Batterskulls and the rare piece of removal.
Do you use Body and Mind because of the "make a guy" trigger? I wouldn't think the mill would matter much: stick SoBaM on a Snapcaster, swing with it and nothing else, and you've got them at 4 life by the time they're going to have to start worrying about their library.
My decision was to play sword of body and mind first of all because 90% of the opposite creatures that were bigger than my equipped creatures were green, so I wanted SoBM or SoFF. And second, the SoBM gives you a body to equip every turn, which is essential to race big mosters like knight of the reliquary when you just have one creature on the board: Equip it, swing, make a token, equip token, block whatever, swing, make another token, equip it... with SoFF you can't win when you're behind or even tied because they can easily race you with their big guys. This was much more important for me than being able to untap lands or whatever. Obviously the milling ability is useless 95% of the time, but what I was interested in was the creating tokens ability because of what I explained.
- What could be done to make the matchup easier? I see your list but I'm unsure of what to add.
- Rock decks? Interesting, I would have thought this deck would be even with Rock decks. Looks like my dream is coming true: a blue deck that's non-merfolk in the post-MMS meta that beats the living snot out of Merfolk decks.2. Talking about games preboard, rock style decks in general are really easy to beat. Post board merfolk is the easiest deck to beat ever.
- Would the grims have helped out with the NO/Pro matchs?3. and 4. My idea was to play lavamancers because I liked them and they were really good against GW, but then they printed the mage and I have to give it an edge. I didn't really want to play red pre board, and the mage worked great, so I will remain playing it. Lavamancer is a good option, no doubt about it, but mage is more versatile (it's good against all the field, I didn't sideboard them out in a single round) and it's in our main colors Uw.
I'm thinking about switching peacekeepers for wrath of god, because many of the times I had peacekeeper on the board I ended up losing the game, and had those been wraths I would have cleaned the board.
Definetly lavmancers would have not helped much, the games I lost against NO bant I was facing reliquarys, goyfs and/or cliques. He didn't resolve natural order in any single game. And I stayed alive in some games thanks to flashbacking swords to plowshares again and again.
That's what I would probably do to be honest. I stopped running peacekeeper once dismember was printed because it didn't seem like that great of an answer anymore, especially against merfolk where it was the best against. I always packed some number of wraths when I played this deck during pre-mm banning and always loved when I had them. I feel they are slow against merfolk(so I'd keep firespouts) but I stole games away from NO decks when I played Wrath against them.
On another note, was this the tournament you played in?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...nt-297-Players
If so, any chance you were under the camera so we can get to see this deck in action?
You're right, that's the tournament. I got featured in round 4 against TA, so you should be able to watch the round as soon as they upload it. If I can recall correctly you will also watch some snapcaster shenanigans there.
When it's posted, would you be willing to provide a link? It would be a great resource to see it in action.
Sure, no problem. Just give the guys some days to upload all the videos they recorded. It's a hard work to recollect and edit them, you know.
Guys, better keep an eye out for some secret tech Merfolk players may be using against us:
Tower of the Magistrate
They can target the germ token, forcing the equipment on it to be removed. This kills the germ token.
I think the card will fall out of favor soon enough. tempo decks are getting more and more popular and so is combo. At least for GP Amsterdam. The card fights a too specific deck imo.
As a fish player, I don't understand why people are using 2 precious sideboard slots of 2 towers. Chances of you getting this card is slim at best.
The matchup for merfolk against this deck is like 30/70 preboard. post board is like 15/85.
Even with the two towers, Merfolk won't win. The two precious sideboard slots can be used to beat up decks merfolk has a chance of beatin (those decks with a 60/40 merfolk advantage), thus ensuring victory over those decks.
This is the same logic against zoo, when post board, they bring in 4 REBs.
I have to agree, I think Merfolk will always be a dog against the U/x Blade archetype. The deck plays too many things that absolutely ruin any tribal deck. When you can gain life with Batterskull while picking off their lords with removal and threatening a Snapcaster mage for a surprise blocker, it looks pretty damn bad for the Fish.
That being said, I wonder if the Black splash isn't worthy of some more consideration? Perish seems like it would solve so many of this deck's issues, and being able to run Extirpate over Surgical is a legitimate advantage. You could also bring out Dark Confidants from the board if you really wanted to piss all over control mirror matches. Can you imagine them boarding in Krosan Grips only to see Bob on turn 2?? Priceless!
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