I'm not a fan of sprites as snapcasters have taken over it's slots. So without sprites, what are the best colourless lands/karakas? I think it's a fight between mishra's factory, moorland haunt and karakas.
I was running 4 factories and they're great with soff. You can bash with an equipped factory out of nowhere and untap all your lands. They always have to play around that when it's on the table. Just picked up a moorland haunt, so I'll give it a try. I think 1 is the max I'd run, since we don't have that many creatures.
Factories seem best because they are even better in multiples.
- Factories also help pay mana for equipping swords / batterskull stuff.Originally Posted by ivanpei
@ Moorland Haunt: I'm not sure how I feel about this card. Sure, you make flying dudes, but you gotta have dead creatures first. STP removes some of the dudes you could make. I'd run Faerie Conclave over those since they at least make blue mana and give you a flying dude without having to wait for a guy to die.
Oh, and if we go UWB, we can do Snapcaster Mage + Unearth. It's a fun way to bring back SFM that got nuked. Or Vendilion. Or another Snappy to flashback another spell.
Snapcaster mage will become a staple for this archetipe as a 3 or 4 of. I'm pretty sure about it.
Not just because of its ability, but good creatures with flash are nuts in thse kind of decks.
I ran Fnid's basic list at the LGS this week. Pretty small turnout (6), but it was a decent introduction to how the deck plays. Went 2-1 despite some very swingy luck, so not a bad initial outing.
// Lands
6 [RAV] Island
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [RAV] Plains
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [RAV] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [7E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MPR] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
I was short one Volcanic, but figured I'd be able to get red when I needed it pretty easily. The Rainforest was just a "dammit, don't have another Strand" choice, as I figured it was going to be pretty rare that I went for the singleton Plains. The list was short a Clique (replaced by 4th Snapcaster) and a Tarn and Mesa (replaced by Rainforests), until about 5 minutes before the tournament started, when I got a good trade in.
R1: Kris with BUGStill.
G1: Had to mull a no-lander, kept a pretty solid hand. Fetched T1 for a Tundra. He Wasted. Fetched T2. He wasted again. D'oh. I had him on either Team America or Merfolk, so fetching aggressively to dodge Stifles from TA wasn't the worst plan, but not getting basics was pretty dumb, especially since this was G1 and fetching Island Plains probably would have satisfied all my mana needs. I don't draw lands, he eventually Jaces me out. At least I saw enough of his deck to make it clear that he was playing BUGStill with Loam, Jace, Deed, and Standstill. He had a wastelock later in the game, but it was probably overkill. I pretty much deserved to lose this game for bad fetching.
Sideboarding: -4 Swords, -2 Shackles, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Relic of Progenitus. The REBs were obvious, and I figured if I could keep him off Loam, the Factories would look pretty weak compared to my value creatures and Batterskull. BUGStill generally only runs 4 Factory as creatures, so it seemed like the Swords and Shackles would be pretty narrow.
G2: Had to mull a no-lander (again), at least he had to mull too. Kept a pretty solid hand, dropped an early Relic and started playing out basics. Early counterwar for a Standstill, which he won, and after he dropped a Factory, I had to break it pretty fast. Unfortunately, my mana development stalled, and I was left trying to deal with a Mishra's Factory chipping away my life total. I stuck a Mystic for Batterskull, but he dropped Innocent Blood. Eventually I just had to start playing threats or I was going to be dead. Dropped a Jace with no counter backup, he Counterspelled. Couple turns later, tried to hardcast the Batterskull. It stuck, but he EOT Cunning Wished for a Grip and killed it. I don't get relevant threats, and die to Mishra beats. I forgot to pop my Relic for a chance at an extra card, but I don't think there was much in my deck that would have saved me anyway. This would have been a great game for Shackles or Sword, but I feel the cards I boarded in were more relevant, and this game was really lost when I was forced to walk my threats into removal.
Round 2: Will with Countertop Stoneblade
G1: I mull a no-lander (AGAIN), and am left with a solid 6 that has lands and 3 Stoneforge Mystic. I go ahead and run one out on T2, he has a Swords. I drop the next one, he Forces. I drop the third, it resolves, but he has the Swords. I eventually drop a Snapcaster for something relevant, and equip the Sword of Body and Mind I got with the third Stoneforge. He can't find an answer, he does kill the Snapcaster the next turn, but I already have a wolf, and the Sword hits a few more times. He kills it, but I still have wolves and drop a Batterskull, and chip away the rest of his life. Interesting sidenote: the milling of SoBaM was actually relevant here. On his last turn, he Intuitioned, hoping for Snapcaster, but ended up not having enough in his deck, and going for a weird pile like Moat, Academy Ruins, Snapcaster. He didn't have the mana to cast the Moat I let him have (I didn't notice this, was just planning to counter and figured I'd give him the hardest thing to cast), and it was game.
Sideboarding: -2 Swords, -3 Counterspell, +3 Pyro, +2 EE. I already knew he was running Snapcaster, Stoneforge, and Counterbalance, so Snare seemed highly relevant here. Shackles seems pretty good here, since it can take equipped creatures or Cliques, or even yank summoning-sick Mystics. Force was definitely not the right choice to cut, since he has a ton of nasty things waiting around. I decided to cut Counterspell, thinking it was pretty bad in counterwars, and most of the stuff I wanted to get rid of was going to be handled by Pyro, Snare, or both. Swords seems bad here too, and EE is definitely relevant for Counterbalance, especially since you can play around with what you pay for X to dodge the likely Counterbalance flip.
G2: I open a hand with double Jace, lands, and a Force. Seems good. We play land-go for a while, I get a Pyro and a spare blue card for Force, and cast Jace T4. He Forces, I Force back. I brainstorm once and looking at my complete lack of Stoneforges (and his Counterbalance that might randomly screw me there), I decide to start Fatesealing. He drops a Clique, which I Pyro, and a turn later uniqueness-rules my Jace. No harm done, I drop my second one. He lets it stick. I Brainstorm once, drawing into a Mystic. He passes back, and I decide to start Fatesealing. I stop a second Clique, and get up to about 9 counters before he drops his own Jace. Thankfully, I have a Stoneforge, now I just need to get it to stick. I resolve it, going for Batterskull, but he has a Swords for it. I get a Snapcaster, and think about using it to flashback Pyro and take out his Counterbalance, but he drops a second Counterbalance that turn. I end up using Snapcaster to Snare his attempted Snapcaster on Brainstorm. Take my turn, draw Mystic, Mystic for Sword of Body and Mind, play Sword, equip Sword to Snapcaster, swing. It hits once before he drops EE for 3, but I still have Snapcaster, the wolf token, and Stoneforge. I start taking his life total down. His last turn, he Snapcasts for Swords, targeting my Germ token. He realizes he made a misplay by not waiting until my combat phase, since I just equip Batterskull to Stoneforge and swing, and he extends the hand when I do so.
I realize what Fnid's saying about Sword of Body and Mind now. In a deck with so few bodies, the ability to keep making guys to swing with is really useful in control matchups. A shame I never drew a Clique in these games, though: it would have been really nice to pressure him.
R3: Dan with WW/Equip
G1: I mull a no-lander (AGAIN!), into a 6-card all-lander. I decide I can afford to keep this, since I don't think his clock's too fast, and I can't risk a 5-card just being crap because it's 5 cards. I play some lands and fail to draw Stoneforge, Shackles, or a Brainstorm into either, while he plays little guys and suits them up. I finally find a Stoneforge into Batterskull, but my life total is negligible, and I can't get it into play fast enough. I die to Kor Duelist, Kemba, and Auriok Steelshaper.
Sideboarding: -4 Force of Will, -3 Spell Snare, -1 Counterspell, +3 Wrath of God, +3 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosives. All right, we want to play White Weenie? I can live with that. He played a decent number of guys, and didn't seem to be holding back at all, so I'm pretty sure I can just blow him out with Wrath. By the way, this is one of my favorite things about the deck: how post-SB it can just turn into aggro's worst nightmare.
G2: I keep a hand of Wrath, Wrath, Swords, and lands that can produce 2WW. Time to play like I'm a . He plays his standard aggressive opener, I play land-go, and on T4 blow away his 3-4 creatures. I draw into Stoneforge, play Stoneforge, play Vedalken Shackles. He drops Puresteel Paladin, attempts to equip a Loxodon Warhammer to it. Response, steal Puresteel. Smack him with the Puresteel, end of his turn drop a Batterskull (drawing a card off the Paladin, TECH!) Batterskull and Paladin beat down, he doesn't find another creature.
G3: I keep a hand that can do T2 Stoneforge. No counter backup, but I don't think he's really packing any removal, I certainly haven't seen any when it would have come in handy. I do that, he drops Lost Leonin (bet you had to look that up). Swings it at me with a Leonin Scimitar equipped, bringing me to 3 poison. Huh. Batterskull swings in. Leonin hits again. Batterskull batters a blocker. I decide I don't want to randomly lose to him having a proliferate card in there, and Swords the Leonin on the third swing. He topdecks Seal of Cleansing and blows up Batterskull, or tries to: I've got mana open to bounce him, and do so. He doesn't find creatures, a fact I help a few turns later with a Jace that starts Fatesealing him into Plains, and Batterskull takes it home.
We split R4, and I used my winnings to help grab that last Flooded Strand for the list. No more Misty Rainforests for this guy!
Deck seemed pretty solid, although I probably need more experience with it. I could do without the no-land 7 every Game 1 though. Don't think there's anything I'd change about the list, or the board, although the only things I really got any mileage out of in the board were the Pyroblasts (aside from the 2005-style blowout I got to do R3). It feels like it's a little light on kill conditions, but honestly against a lot of the decks that can deal with Jace/Batterskull you could probably just kill with Clique/Snapcaster beats.
Interesting to see someone already trying a Counterblade list. You can expect to see more of them as people get tired of storm/reanimator decks. Good news for me is that I have the cards to make either this deck or the CounterBlade deck.
But enough of that, what did you think of the Snappys Q 221?
Also played the same list as Hugo altho I replaced the karakas for a wizard bouncer.
(65) people
Round 1 vs No pro bant 2-0
Round 2 vs Doomsday 2-0
Round 3 vs Goblins 0-2 (gameloss for wrong decklist after board I would wreck that matchup )
Round 4 vs Team america 1-1 (was winning with jace online too bad time got called too soon :p)
Round 5 vs canadian thresh 2-0
Round 6 vs GBW rock 2-1
Round 7 vs gifts ungiven homebrew with knight of reliq etc. 2-1
Top 8 vs UWb stoneforge with elspeth, jace , discard snapcaster (1-2 very close games)
Very nice Waikiki, was the wizard bouncer better in your opinion or are you not sure?
Also, Chris Van Meter split the finals of the scg 5k with this list
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=41200
Not sure if I agree with all his card choices but over all everyone's lists are very similar. I guess this also goes to show all the haters writing off Stone-Blade post MM.
@ Q221, I think your stoneblade list needs some focus. For example, you are playing wastelands but no daze. Sobm and also counterspell. Preferably if you like wastelands, daze is a good card to go with it. Otherwise I find factories more useful. If you are playing hard counters like snare and cspell, you'd want soff because you can equip, bash, untap and have mana up for counters. Previously I prefer sobm as well but without missteps and dazes, having the extra mana is pretty important. Factory + soff is insane. It's a very dangerous threat that opponents have to play around.
Everyone, including me, seems to be in love with Spell Snare (especially because of its applications with Tiago), but what do people think of plain old Counterspell? I have doubts, especially with Snapcaster Mage. Double Blue on turn two can be an issue, but triple Blue on turn 4 (for Tiago) is definitely a problem.
I'm trying to think of why Spell Pierce just isn't better in that slot. Spell Snare answers every threatening creature in the format with the exception of Tombstalker and Vendilion Clique. Having Counterspell for the hard counter is obviously better in the late game, but do we really have enough trouble in the late game to warrant running it over Spell Pierce? It's infinitely easier to leave one Blue up to protect a Mystic or Jace, etc. than two Blue.
Pretty funny how everyone dismissed Tiago saying "nah, its not so good, a 2/1 and an stp effect for 3 mana is mediocre at best, it won't have an impact on the format". The first results definitely show something different. I have been testing with Tiago the second he got spoiled, and even now without MM, I'm still impressed by him, if you build your deck around him. Of course we can't no longer cast SFM on turn 2 a lot like we used to, but that doesn't mean the deck is unplayable. Games will take longer and you have to play more controllish than go aggro on turn 2, but its still worth it.
So, here is the list I've been testing for the last couple of weeks:
UWr BladeControl
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
Sb:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Divert
2 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Meddling Mage
As you can see, a lot of cards which go well together with Tiago: the obvious BS and StoP, but also Snare, Bolt and Spell Pierce, which is very good, not only at protecting your SFM if you play him on turn 3, but also in fighting Storm combo, Jaces, NO, GSZ and the like. Spell Pierce also fights Aether Vial or SD.Top if you happen to be on the play in turn 1, which you can't do with Counterspell or Spell Snare. Right now, I can't see why nobody else is maindecking them.
Bolts are also very good against Zoo, can kill Jace and can be flashbacked. Surgical Extraction and REB are very strong cards to flashback, too. (The 1 divert I'm just testing IF Team America is being played a lot. It's just not good enough in other MU i guess).
Also, I think Wastelands are more important than Manlands. I don't want a full set though, since I'm not planning on mana-screwing my opponent. I rather want to selectively get rid of lands causing trouble for me, like Maze of Ith. I don't think its a good idea to fit Wastelands and Manlands in a 3 color deck (its fine for U/W though).
As you can see, I prefer Karakas over Riptide Lab.
The one counterspell might look random, but I essentially decided to take a 3/1 split with spell pierce rather than the 2/2. There isn't much I can't counter in the early game with either snare or pierce that will cause a lot of trouble, and against combo, spell pierce is good enough and easier to get online and easier to flashback. In the late game however, Counterspell is still amazing. Also, flashbacking it late is not a problem.
I might try - 1 Fire/Ice, +1 Bolt, but I don't want too many dead cards against combo decks in game 1. I actually played Ice more than I played fire, but that was mainly because I didn't face a lot of aggro.
The land performed great winning me at least 2 games.
What crazy plays did it enable?
They were pretty fantastic all day, being able to reuse counters, Swords, or what have you was pretty powerful, and I don't think there was ever a time I drew one and was unhappy to see it. I failed to draw Cliques in every game except G2 of round 3 (while I was already sitting with a pretty great field against an opponent in topdeck mode), so I can't really tell you which was stronger. They're amazing with Pyro out of the board, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Surgical Extraction. The 2/1 is pretty relevant, too: a lot of times he'd eat a Swords or trade with an opposing creature, so I'd usually get the full 2-for-1.
I really don't think Daze is the right choice in this deck: it's awful with Snapcaster and the deck isn't particularly great at playing the tempo game.
Factory over Wasteland actually sounds decent though: the only time I remember using Wasteland effectively was to keep my Round 1 opponent off black in Game 2. I had been trying to come up with a way to run Factory anyway, but the high basic count is pretty important at keeping tempo decks down, in my opinion. I'll give it a shot.
I had the same reservations about Body and Mind over Feast and Famine when I first looked at the deck, but I've come to agree with Fnid that it's a stronger card. Being able to generate creatures for the deck to equip is pretty strong against both control and aggro, and I find that unless I'm dropping Jace or Batterskull, I usually always have the mana for the counters in hand. The deck does have a pretty large land base, so I'm usually not too worried about having counter mana up.
I've been pretty happy with Counterspell. I haven't Snapcast it yet, just because most times I've had a Snapcaster there was a better answer in the yard, but I think my manabase could support it pretty well.
As for Pierce, I'd say Knight of the Reliquary is an important threat that Snare can't answer, and one I'd probably want to Counterspell pretty quick. In addition, just because Snare handles threats doesn't mean you don't want overlap on your answers: I can easily see times I'd want to Counterspell a Goyf or Stoneforge, just because I don't have a Snare or Snapcaster. Last point, Pierce isn't a hard counter, which can actually become relevant given that the deck isn't a particularly fast clock. Yes, most of the time they won't know to play around it, but if they suspect you have it in hand, them playing around Pierce doesn't give you the same kind of advantage Merfolk gets when people play around Daze.
I can only second this!
I think its very hard to play around Spell Pierce. What do you want to do, not cast Jace for 2 more turns and just do nothing instead? If they start doing that you gain two sphere effects by just having them in your deck, which is superb!
KotR is important to get rid off, but StoP does a very good job at killing him. Also, if you have Wastelands and not just "wasted" them to randomly kill a dual, the utility lands they might get (Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith) look a lot less scary, so you probably have another turn to find an answer to him. If you feel he is a particular problem, why not play Submerge in the side.
Overlapping on answers isn't a problem. I'm fine with counterspelling a cmc2 spell if it is that important. You can do that with Spell Pierce too, like countering an early Sylvan Library or Hymn. Of course, the big argument against Pierce is like "what if he just plays that card on turn 4 and can pay for Pierce". In these spots, counterspell would be superior, which is why I suggest a split between them, but you can answer a lot of these situations with other counters you might have now because it's not turn two anymore, or with Snapcaster Mage re-buying a Spell Snare, or even double-piercing with Snapcaster Mage if you have 4 mana as well.
In the late game, Spell Pierce can still be good in a counter war, something along the line where he plays a threat, you force or spell snare, he counterspells or rebs or whatever and you pierce. Also, if people start playing Snapcaster Mage a lot, each instant/sorcery they flashback effectively cost 3+ mana, so they have a very hard time paying for Spell Pierce.
Flusterstorm may be a decent card for the sb against storm combo and works well with snapcaster mage. I'm trying a pair of them in the slot of one red blast (as I'm playing four) and another card. A split of 3 red blast and 2 flusterstorm seems sweet at first glance.
Hi Frid, I'm strongly considering adding your list (or a close approximation of it) to my testing gauntlet, how do you usually side for the UWx Stoneforge/Snapcaster/Whatever mirror?
It depends on the build, but with my actual list if they're playing 10-12 creatures, as they use to, I board out 4 swords to plowshares for 4 red blasts, which seems logical as all their creatures are blue except for stoneforge. It may vary if they play more creatures, leaving one or two stp and taking out one force of will and/or one clique.
In the control mirrors the first turns are nearly always tied and in those scenarios the worst card you can have in hand is swords to plowshares. And of course you'll prefer always to counter the creatures and not just kill them, as they are all two for ones.
I leave in shackles, jaces and my own creatures to stabilize if necessary in the mid/late game, which is more than enough. In fact I have faced five mirrors in the four tournaments I've played with the deck (three with mental misstep and two without) and I am 5-0 in this particular matchup with 100% victories in post board games, so I'm pretty sure it's a solid boarding plan.
It made me add my graveyard to my hand.
@frid I think you are right about boarding. I was pretty unexperienced in the quarterfinal which believe cost me the game.
What about Ancestral Visions? I'm still not sure about dropping those. For a pretty hard control deck like us, refilling our hand with answers seems almost essential. We shouldn't have a problem making it to turn 4-6 when it will pop.
As for the control mirror, assuming you are running Red, I'd think bringing in REB for Force would be better than siding out Swords.
I'm going to try adding in a miser Counterspell. Unless I cut Ancestral Vision, I don't have room for more. My current list is in my sig. I'll keep testing. ;D
(Another thought... don't laugh it off just yet, but maybe Mana Leak has a spot in place of Counterspell...? Paying three is nearly a hard counter for most Legacy decks. The exception would probably be late game in a control mirror. That way double Blue wouldn't be an issue unless you wanted to Taigo it back.)
I seriously think sideboarding out force of wills is the biggest mistake one can make when playing a control deck. In general I have never boarded out more than one copy, and not very often.
Leave in swords and take force of will out and you'll whine when your opponent easily wins the counterwar for his jace and crushes you in card advantage while you sword his snapcasters and stoneforges that have already two for one'd you
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
