[Deck] Reanimator

[mdc1010]

So there wasn't even 1 Reanimator in the top 16 in the SCG open this weekend.. What happened?

[Master Shake]

Snappy happened.

I've seen you posting all over The Source for the last couple of months and I have to say, none of the posts I've seen with your name attached have been helpful in any context. While I am happy to see that you're interested in trying to help and respond to people, it is a bit troubling that your primary concern is trying to generate imaginary Source cred by attempting to one-up others and make witty comments. I don't know why the moderators have been so lax with your posts, but I'm reporting this one. I'd really like to see you bring your post quality up, since you seem to have something to say on every subject.

So there wasn't even 1 Reanimator in the top 16 in the SCG open this weekend.. What happened?

Well, just as Indianapolis was a single tournament, so was Nashville. What happened? Well, that's a complicated question. Local metagames, Nashville isn't exactly a hub of Legacy like the North East or areas around Michigan. Perhaps people were prepared, or perhaps people were more interested in beating the deck over playing it. There are many factors, but it isn't really reasonable to look at one event and ask "Why didn't this deck appear?" In a format as diverse as Legacy, a lot of things can happen, and considering that the dominant deck generally makes up no more than 10% of a metagame, it shouldn't be surprising when the dominant deck doesn't make an appearance.

What happened? Perhaps this is a better question to ask if this trend keeps up for several weeks. I think the better question is, how is Belcher making Top 16 twice in a row? Some people have balls of steel.



In other news, I forgot to post a link to my report here; so here it is for anyone that wants to see what my experiences with the deck were:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/breaki...scg-open-indy/

[DrHealex]

I'd like to kick in an observation from nashville, of which being that combo and reanimator were definitely well represented. I look forward to the impending TMI report as always. There did seem to be an even larger amount of blue based decks and perhaps people even upping their grave hate in the board (i saw ALOT more leylines in play/sbs/decks than usual) was too much for this deck to overcome.

[KevinTrudeau]

In other news, I forgot to post a link to my report here; so here it is for anyone that wants to see what my experiences with the deck were:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/breaki...scg-open-indy/

Very well-written report, cool to see that you made t8 even though the majority of your matches were against blue decks. Loved the Game Genie analogy. I liked your inclusion of Thoughtseize in the main, as I assumed that to be the best replacement for Misstep right off the bat; did you ever at any point feel that another piece of permission would have been superior in its place (Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Dispel, etc.)?

[Master Shake]

Very well-written report, cool to see that you made t8 even though the majority of your matches were against blue decks. Loved the Game Genie analogy. I liked your inclusion of Thoughtseize in the main, as I assumed that to be the best replacement for Misstep right off the bat; did you ever at any point feel that another piece of permission would have been superior in its place (Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Dispel, etc.)?

For the main, I never really wanted anything else except against Burn or Zoo, which are pretty good anyway. For the slower decks where they aren't going to put a ton of pressure on you until turn 3-4, that's where Thoughtseize is really good, it takes either the disruption or the Stoneforge/Equipment it grabbed.

It was even great against the Snapcaster decks becuase Snapcaster isn't really a live play for them until roughly turn 4, which is incredibly slow against Reanimator.

I'm not totally positive that I approached every match properly and there is a lot of room for the deck to grow in both card choices and how to approach each deck, but I feel that despite not seeing it in the Top 16 of this most recent event, it's a strong choice.

(But really, Elves made Top 8, what's with that?)

[Water_Wizard]

Master Shake,
Congrats and excellent tournament post! Regarding Round 4 sb, what was your 5th card? Spell Pierce? I appreciate your thoroughness and advice about sideboard changes - helps a novice legacy player like myself. If you don't mind, I have two questions. Why did you choose Archangel? Is that a staple for you or a meta choice in anticipation of lots of storm/agro? Secondly, I noticed you only sideboarded 1 S&T in 1 match. Against what match-ups would you have brought in all 3?
Thank you!

[Goin Aggro]

I know I asked this question a page or so back, but it looks to have gotten lost in the aftermath of the Open discussion.

I'd ask again, what do you guys do to win the mirror match? Sideboard Strategies? Are there chokepoints where you can force your opponent to act and then take the advantage?

Master Shake, Any input?

[KevinTrudeau]

I know I asked this question a page or so back, but it looks to have gotten lost in the aftermath of the Open discussion.

I'd ask again, what do you guys do to win the mirror match? Sideboard Strategies? Are there chokepoints where you can force your opponent to act and then take the advantage?

Master Shake, Any input?

I don't have a lot of experience with the mirror, but I know a few things:

-Don't prematurely cast Careful Study and walk right into an opponent's Animate Dead/Reanimate (the biggest thing to keep in mind).
-Discard effects (Thoughtseize, Duress) seem like they'd be at a premium, especially when you consider you can reanimate their stuff.
-Symmetrical effects seem pretty bad (Exhume, Show and Tell), but don't necessarily auto-exclude them, especially if you're following tip #2.
-Board out all of the anti-creature targets, except possibly Blazing Archon (Elesh, Archangel, Sphinx, etc.).
-Board in your disruption— games will probably be a bit slower because the opponent will also likely be bringing in more disruption, and this is a combo deck after all (this tip might be completely wrong).
-Bounce effects could potentially win you games, so keep Echoing Truth in mind when you're boarding.

Why did you choose Archangel? Is that a staple for you or a meta choice in anticipation of lots of storm/agro?

I don't want to speak for him, but I think the recent inclusion of the previously neglected Archangel is because the deck just lost four hard counters to Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile, it's an arguably better maindeck shroud target than Inky because a large percentage of blue decks can race Inky with Batterskull, it has evasion, and it has an added bonus (or a potential liability) against aggro. Note that Archangel won't do anything against Storm because Tendrils of Agony causes life loss.

[dahcmai]

I'm a fan of Angel for another odd reason. In testing, I used her to hold off Progenitus. She takes the hit, goes to the yard and I reanimated her while Jin or another (usually Jin) kept the beatings on. If he stopped attacking, the angel would swing in. With Jin out, reanimate effects are pretty unlimited. Eventually, I would take it no matter what even with that monster on the table.

I kind of wanted to keep the ability to do that since No RUG didn't really lose too much from Misstep being banned. No RUG wasn't really a close match even with Misstep unless they popped off a third turn Projo, but it never hurts to have good outs to things like that.

She's also one of the best for BUG Landstill. They have Innocent Bloods and other Edicts, but if they don't have one or you board into a Dryad Arbor to stall them off a little, she's pretty golden at pushing through with a Jace and Mishra's out.



I liked having a single Coffin Purge for the Mirror, that thing was just mean. It's a good entomb target and completely is hidden until you pop it on them. Seriously good tech for the mirror.

[Water_Wizard]

I don't want to speak for him, but I think the recent inclusion of the previously neglected Archangel is because the deck just lost four hard counters to Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile, it's an arguably better maindeck shroud target than Inky because a large percentage of blue decks can race Inky with Batterskull, it has evasion, and it has an added bonus (or a potential liability) against aggro. Note that Archangel won't do anything against Storm because Tendrils of Agony causes life loss.

Kevin,
Thanks! Makes sense. I know Master Shake also mentioned that aggro/combo tends to be the dominant archtype during a format rotation, so it makes sense that Archangel would be good in the meta. Additionally, thanks for the clarification on Tendrils, because prior to your post, I was thinking that was one of the primary reasons for playing Emyprical. Also, both of the top two decks at SCG Indy only ran 3 Jin. Currently, I'm running 4, but with Entomb, 3 is probably fine. I noticed Josh Weinundy put Iona in the board. Perhaps the meta is different online, but I play so many mono color (burn, elves) decks, that Iona is just too good to not have in the main. I moved Blazing Archon to the board, as it seems like Elesh and/or Iona are 1st/2nd targets for me. The only time I really want Archon is against Sneak & Show or Progen, but I haven't faced those match-ups much. Additionally, why did Weinundy run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Is this to turn his fetches into swamps or is it for use with Sundering Titan? It seems like this card may have greater potential to help your opponent.

[Master Shake]

...Additionally, why did Weinundy run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Is this to turn his fetches into swamps or is it for use with Sundering Titan? It seems like this card may have greater potential to help your opponent.

This is a holdover from Eli Kassi's lists where he would play Hymn to Tourach in the sideboard and Grive Titan in the sidebaord. The only real reason to play it is if you're expecting to hard cast a threat, and it just isn't going to happen.

Master Shake, Any input?

Regarding the Mirror, Kevin covered a lot of it. I'll just add this:

From my list, I would sideboard like this:

-1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind -1 Elesh Norn +1 Blazing Archon +1 Inkwell Leviathan

This keeps your creature count the same, which may seem contradictory, but these cards are the best creatures. If you like, you can cut Inkwell for a different card, but I don't think it's ideal.

-3 Exhume, -3 Daze -2 Careful Study +3 Spell Pierce +1 Thoughtseize +1 Echoing Truth +1 Wipe Away +2 Dispel. This will give you tools to fight a long game. Dispel is excellent to hit opposing Entombs as well as countermagic. You may want to consider keeping Daze in on the play, and it may be right to keep it in on the draw as well, but cuts do get tricky before too long.

Master Shake,
Congrats and excellent tournament post! Regarding Round 4 sb, what was your 5th card? Spell Pierce? I appreciate your thoroughness and advice about sideboard changes - helps a novice legacy player like myself. If you don't mind, I have two questions. Why did you choose Archangel? Is that a staple for you or a meta choice in anticipation of lots of storm/agro? Secondly, I noticed you only sideboarded 1 S&T in 1 match. Against what match-ups would you have brought in all 3?
Thank you

I believe it was Wipe Away.

[DragoFireheart]

I've seen you posting all over The Source for the last couple of months and I have to say, none of the posts I've seen with your name attached have been helpful in any context. While I am happy to see that you're interested in trying to help and respond to people, it is a bit troubling that your primary concern is trying to generate imaginary Source cred by attempting to one-up others and make witty comments. I don't know why the moderators have been so lax with your posts, but I'm reporting this one. I'd really like to see you bring your post quality up, since you seem to have something to say on every subject.

- I'm not trying to be witty but if the length of my posts is the issue then I apologize.

Snapcaster Mage is going to be a huge issue for this deck due to the fact that he can Flashback Cranial Extraction. This basically allows every blue deck to in a sense have 8 Extractions, with 4 costing 1U. I think that is going to be a serious challenge for this deck, never mind the fact that decks like Team America can flash back Extirpate and there isn't much that can be done about it.

Edit: Change that cranial to Surgical Extraction. Lmao.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah I was thinking Drago "...wtf is he talking about cranial extraction for again?" lol.

In the mirror I'd say disruption is key. You always want to disrupt them and most importantly you get INFORMATION about what their hand is like when you thoughtseize and duress them. In every combo mirror I've played I've always wanted to know what's in my opponents hand so I know when to pull the trigger or know what I have to counter as well as slowing the opponent down. Or you can just protect your own combo by stripping their FoW, daze, or whatever countermagic they're holding so you can get jin or some other gambreaker into play.

More people are SBing for this deck though; I keep seeing surgical extractions in SBs all over the place and I can't blame them. Surgical extraction is sweet with snapcaster and is just a decent SB card in general. This deck can still fight through anything though what with the show and tells just circumventing gravehate completely and being a must counter for the opponent or else they lose in all likelihood.

[jcsy]

The protection package :

4 FOW
3 Daze
2-3 Thoughtseize

Pre Jin, Thoughtseize is better

Post Jin, the drawing 7 will make Force&Daze better but Thoughtseize dead in hand because Jin is going to discard it anyhow, or lose 2 life to get rid of a potentially a LAND :D

in all this, its hard finding a mix of Pre Jin or Post Jin

Build 1
Do you play 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce (to make Post Jin insane)

Build 2
or you play 4, FOW, 3 Daze, 4 Thoughtseize (to make Pre Jin safe)


Comparison
I realized Build 1's power of the Draw 7 picks many counters up, and protects what ever that they are going to cast anyways
I realized this when I dropped Jin and drew 2 Thoughtseizes (Build 2), no counters and Jin was already doing the dirty work of discarding. Felt like dead cards

Tough choice, tough choice

What say you?

I still believe in a mix, or perhaps just ALL of it :D

[zmattk]

The protection package :

4 FOW
3 Daze
2-3 Thoughtseize

Pre Jin, Thoughtseize is better

Post Jin, the drawing 7 will make Force&Daze better but Thoughtseize dead in hand because Jin is going to discard it anyhow, or lose 2 life to get rid of a potentially a LAND :D

in all this, its hard finding a mix of Pre Jin or Post Jin

Build 1
Do you play 4 FOW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce (to make Post Jin insane)

Build 2
or you play 4, FOW, 3 Daze, 4 Thoughtseize (to make Pre Jin safe)


Comparison
I realized Build 1's power of the Draw 7 picks many counters up, and protects what ever that they are going to cast anyways
I realized this when I dropped Jin and drew 2 Thoughtseizes (Build 2), no counters and Jin was already doing the dirty work of discarding. Felt like dead cards

Tough choice, tough choice

What say you?

I still believe in a mix, or perhaps just ALL of it :D

I'm personally playing 3 thoughtseize, 4 force, and 3 daze atthe moment. My reasoning is game one, thoughtseize pretty much acts as a counter as well as revealing your opponents hand to give you valuable information. Yes it sucks having thoughtseize being useless after Jin discards your opponents hand but at that point you should be in a pretty good position to win. I have dispels and spell pierce in the board in case I need to win counter wars.

I should also note the meta is shifting away from heavy counters at the moment. No deck besides merfolk can really fit more than 8 counters in the main so I feel thoughtseize is the correct choice since it hits all form of hate our deck might see.

[jcsy]

found many recent builds with Brainstorm and Ponder, making Top8's

i am impressed that though we have "mathematically" adjusted without Brainstorm and Ponders, our deck is a little more consistent, these Top8's proves otherwise

I think its more of a mix of the sideboard games, where digging and completing a combo and god hand, matters. hiding from discard is secondary i feel.

at the end of the day, its a choice for players either to run 2 or 4 brainstorms, and how comfortable they feel with none at all

while most of us know how the deck should roughly look like now, its about tweaking sideboard and sometimes decisions in each game

roughly we know how many creatures, how many protection, how many discard and how many reanimations we need. i am confident we are moving alot forward now and hopefully it remains as DTB!

[hofzge]

I think the builds with 4 Brainstorm and with Ponder have made up a lot of ground lately due to everyone packing more grave hate and discard (a shift in the control decks from predominantely UW Stoneforge to UB Snapcaster).

These build are slower preboard, but have a much better game postboard when facing hate. Brainstorm helps against both and Ponder helps rebuilding your hand against discard. Also they run less risk of drawing 3 reanimation spells and no targets or no discard spell (this would also be a reason to run Thoughtseize as it is a combo cards for your deck - even if revealing your hand can be kind of suboptimal).

[say no to scurvy]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but now that we've reached 10 cc/lifeloss reanimation targets with Jin, is duress or thoughtseize the correct disruption spell?

[Darklingske]

In my opinion, Thoughtseize is the correct one. Why? My meta is being flooded with Team America featuring the new star Snapcaster mage! And since Duress can't take creatures and snapcaster thus renders your discard rather useless, I prefer TS. And not to mention that you can TS yourself to bin a fattie. But that's my opinion of course... And I still play Duress in the SB.

[Water_Wizard]

Guys,
I think Reanimator is dead - at least in the online community. I realize it did well in Indy, but with the recent banning of Misstep and inclusion of ISD online (the online rotation is about 2 weeks behind real life - misstep banned Oct. 12 and ISD became legal Oct. 13), I have just been getting pillaged.
Here is the reason why. Before misstep ban / ISD, I faced a lot of permanent grave-hate (Void, Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb), but after the rotation, I've been destroyed by extirpate, extraction, purify. I usually win game 1, but have been having a really difficult post-board match. I've been seeing the instant grave hate much more often, and this essentially makes reanimator a 3-card combo (some type of discard to clear their hand, something to put your creature in the graveyard, and something to reanimate). I've tried show & tell, but this is still vulnerable to counterspells / STP. I find it's a lot harder to keep Jin alive without MM for STP/PTE. With only 4 hard counters, it's really difficult to keep him alive. Also, with the inclusion of more instant-speed grave hate and less permanent grave-hate, I find Echoing Truth and Needle are a lot less useful from the board.
Last night I faced U/Wb fish which ran Extirpate and UB Storm, which also ran Extirpate and Echoing Truth (???). Maybe I should play a few more rounds, but I'm frustrated. Before MM ban, I was doing well with reanimator, now, it's been rough. I think I'm putting this deck on the shelf, at least until the meta cools off and sideboard choices shift. My contention, and the major reason for this post is this: Against permanent gy hate (void, relic, ooze, relic), I think this deck has a fighting chance (especially if a deck is not running W for STP). If there is instant speed gy hate (esp. extirpate), it is just too hard to bring a creature into play and protect it. Last night, I just didn't have enough discard and protection to stave off extirpate and stp and force a reanimation spell/S&T through a counterspell - on the few chance I did reanimate a creature, it was gone the next turn. Thoughts? Support? 1-800 line?