I'm really into testing German list cause of the massive anti-bear hate.
Death and Taxes pos Board it's impossible to win...
Too much hate....
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
Lists with IU and burning wish are probably better than the German list when it comes to dealing with hatebears. You can always wish for Deathmark, and postboard you can bring in Chain of Vapor and Deathmark.
Also, I hear that siding in Shelldock Isle and Emrakul is pretty good against them.
But in the example above he mentioned death and taxes...you don't want to side SI - Emmy against them... not really (One clover and a bee....and revery ;) ). And most decks running hatebears, run wastelands...
They have 3-4 Wastelands, 4 Rishadan, 4 Revoker, 4 Arbiter, 2 Canonist, 2 Tutor and 4 Mother of Runes. With Canonist and Mother of Runes, it is almot impossible to deal with all this shit...
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
Massacre is fun.
Originally Posted by emidln
Lol.
Awesome. Why plyers don't run this card?
A great adition to SB and wish target!!
Thanks man! I think that this will break the game, cause kill all death and taxes creatures and hatebears. Great!!!
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
massacre cannot be cast if teeg is in play cmc is still 4
Yeah, and because of this, something like Pyroclasm might be a better option as a wishable way to deal with multiple hatebears.
But I want to use it aginst death and taxes. There is no Gaddock. But all monowhite hates and Mother of Runes can protect them from Pyroclasm. So Massacre is prety awesome in this match. I will test and tell you guys...
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
I've been using Virtue's Ruin to deal with hatebears for a while now and it has been working well. All of the hatebears have white in the casting cost and it also avoids awkward situations that arise against D&T and some of the BW decks that run Mother of Ruins or equip swords on to the bears to give them protection (which is why I never like Pyroclasm). It does cost one more, but it also costs black which is easier to produce, you can wish for it, and it will always destroy what you need to.
Maybe it would be best if people gave some examples of situations (board state, cards in hand, cards on deck) and we can figure out the best way to deal with the situation.
I've never played a match where I had to deal with 3 cannonists, 2 teegs, 4 mother of runes, etc. etc. etc
Most decks that are dropping a bunch of 2/2's and smacking them into you give you enough time to find a chain of vapor, find a burning wish, and win the game.
I've played against BW decks running Canonist as well as the Death and Taxes lists and they truly are a pain if you keep a hand that trades speed for consistency.
As an example, you are playing against Death and Taxes on the draw and they cast a turn one Mother of Ruins, turn two Ethersworn Canonist. If you have the bounce spell, it doesn't matter since they will just tap Mother of Ruins and give Canonist protection in response. The only plausible way out at that point is to have two spot removal cards in hand and cast one on the end of their second turn (which will be countered by the Mother of Ruins) and follow it up by playing another spot removal spell on your following turn. This situation gets even more dire if they follow it up with a turn three Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor.
The above situation can be substituted with Leonin Arbiter instead of Canonist and it still prevents one from casting Doomsday or going off through Infernal Tutor effectively.
These types of decks can run upwards of 10 - 12 inhibiting lock pieces between Leonin Arbiter, Ethersworn Canonist, and Aven Mindcensor; all of which are protected by Mother of Ruins. Additional disruption in the form of Wasteland, Mangara of Corondor, Phyrexian Revoker, Rishadan Port, etc. In most match ups, storm players are accustom to seeing either Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist as the primary hate bears meaning they only have to deal with one or the other, but usually not both. The critical mass of disruptive creatures that are played in this deck allows it to get ahead quicker than our answers allow us to catch it. I would contend that having access to a board sweeper is the only logical way to overcome this.
As I stated above, if we're worried about Mother of Ruins, then Pyroclasm seems to fall short. It requires you to have two answers instead of one. I prefer Virtue's Ruin over the alternatives because it destroys the problems regardless of interference from Mother of Ruins, or due to stat boosters that could invalidate Massacre or Infest. If one's play area has a low likelihood of Gaddock Teeg and a high probability of Ethersworn Canonist, then Massacre is probably a better alternative since its free.
Virtue's ruin is the best card against hatebears.dec + mother of runes. Massacre became obsolete as soon as teeg was printed. If teeg didn't exist I would be slinging massacre's but unfortunately teeg does exist.
The only other valid option against hatebear + mom is to kill them before they land, which is difficult if you don't have the nuts double LED + IT hand or something similarly ridiculous involving doomsday.
Leonin arbiter can be played around if you have enough mana. Arbiter is a true stall card because that is literally all it does besides beating face. Aven mindcensor can be a stall card but only if you have the right pieces to kill in hand and in the GY i.e. you have enough rituals and tendrils and meditate/enough cantrips to kill in hand and in the GY and in the top 4 cards. But this is very unlikely unless you keep the meditate + tendrils + dark rit hand.
I wish emrakul + SI was an easy button but wasteland is in fact a card *sigh*. If only I could run 5 color with ease lol.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
I actually used to run Virtue's Ruin ... and it was spectacular. I never BWed for it often, but it was always game changing when it resolved. That answers all that, Massacre FAILS since Teeg exists. I suppose you could run Infest but ... Ruin is just better IMOP due to the CC.
I took DD to my local tourney tonight and it failed on me ... horribly. Luck is always a factor and my buddy who I played round 1 even acknowledged how much the deck just shit on me. Fair enough ... I went 2-2 but, I have super high hopes for this list. Last week I went 2-1 drop with the same main because, as I always say beer > Magic. Here is the list followed by my matchups:
4x Dark Ritual
3x Lotus Petal
4x Doomsday
3x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x LED
4x Top
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
3x Ponder
1x Emrakul
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x IGG
1x Meditate
1x Tendrils
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire (should be Verdant Catacombs but I don't have them)
2x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn (all blue fetches sould be Misty Rainforest but I don't have them)
2x Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Shelldock Isle
SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Swarm
2x Rebuild
2x Wipe Away
2x Pithing Needle
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
Here were my matchups:
R1: Ninja Chant (2-1) It runs Force, Daze, MoR, Mage, Revoker ... its bad.
g1: Turn 3 DD with Cloud in hand ... easily races MoR w Jitte.
g2: Deck fails on me, mull to 5 and draw nothing.
g3: I mulled to 6 or 5 and drew nothing relevant ... not a thing I could do.
R2: Dragon Stompy
g1: I had a turn 2 DDGO pile but he had RRXX available and 2 cards in hand ... any Moon and I lose instantly. I have a Top in play and DD + 2x DR in my hand ... all I have to do is draw a land. Apparently I don't play them. Turns out my DDGO pile would win the game ... I decided not to press my luck since I had Top and figured I would find a third land ... nope ... 2x Top spins and a Ponder later I can't find it ... luck owns me.
g2: Mull to 6 again because I don't play lands and draw a total of 6 Duress effects ...
Rounds 3 and 4 were goldfishes, losers bracket .... no winners here ... I destroy them both easily.
Now I post this because I think this list has some serious potential. A few months back I was raving about Burning Wish and how absurdly good it was. I have since changed my tune ... I have had BW Blue Blasted so many times its crazy, so I had to adapt to my meta. BW is spectacular in DD ... I will not debate that, but I literally had it stopped post-board 4/4 times in a single tourney ... and this is not including the number of times it was Spell Snared! The people I play with run a TON of blue shit, so every week I parade this deck into them ... partly because I am masochistic and love the challenge, but also because I know I can beat them; you just have to adapt the deck to beat that particular meta.
First off, Carpet of Flowers is absolutely nuts. I mildly tested it but never cared to play a 4th color since I was UBr at the time but .. omg. It is the fucking nuts against U anything. Seriously, it is Dark Ritual 5,6,7 against anything U. The problem that I find with a list like this is the lack of threat density and I have to wonder what i need to cut. Getting rid of Emrakul is not an option ... IMOP if u play DD it HAS to be there. So many times this deck has fucked me over and I have gone DR ... DD, activate top, draw Shelldock ... WIN. In countless situations where I had no business at all winning the game. Even in a Wasteland infested meta ... which I play in ... if they tap it for mana ... I just win if the mana is available or I have the correct cards in hand ... u take advantage of the situation.
After 2 tournaments w the deck, the list is solid but I feel like LDV is necessary to make the threat density higher. -1 Ponder, -1 Petal and +2 LDV should put the deck where it needs to be. I almost want to cut the 3rd IT for another LDV but playing 2 seems excessive since I NEVER want it in multiples. LDV seems like a must, and I should probably be playing it, but cutting the SI plan in a UBg list seems terrible. I rarely board out the Emrakul plan and seriously ... when u think about it, u onl have one dead draw ... Emrakul. SI by itself is totally great to draw: it filters Top when u don't have a fetch, can hide a cantrip for DD, or acts as Wasteland fodder. About 1/4 of the time I stick a land under it when not using Emrakul piles. Thoughts? LDV is necessary, no doubt, but are -1 Petal -1 Ponder the right cuts? LDV is and isn't better than IT in certain situations, but is it correct to run 3x LDV? That seems excessive and drawing multiple copies is just terrible.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Hi everyone,
Been playing DDFT for sometime now with some mild success. I was wondering if anyone thinks the old Rev614 list is still playable or a good choice now. It has always been my favorite list and I've been trying to build a list that runs without MT. The list I've been doing pretty well with is this:
REV614 Reloaded
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Doomsday
4 Show and Tell
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Lim Duls Vault
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Emrakul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meditate
1 Lotus Petal
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Pithing Needle
The build so far has been pretty consistent but obviously has some problems. The main thing I always liked about Rev614 is the 2 different wins it has. Emrakul is great against an opponent with multiple hate bears out that thinks he has the game won lol. Since, the two ways to win are different they don't share hate cards. Similar to having to deal with Hivemind's 2 victory conditions. But I'm sure you guys already know that or the list makes it painfully obvious lol. The S&T plan has helped my win percentage against tempo decks from testing so far as its much easier to assemble that combo against them than a regular Tendrils kill. It also dodges Spell Snare and Stifle.
I normally don't like Lim Dul's Vault but it works well in here. If u draw a S&T or Emrakul you can just search for the other half. It also still does the awesome BS into the Lim Dul's pile and do some broken plays. Like, BS response sac LED for U draw into S&T then use Top to draw Emrakul or w/e.
I'm unsure if Needle and COF both need to be in there but as of now I'm just testing them. If one does get cut it would most likely be for a 4th Lim Duls.
The main problem I've been having, the doesn't happen that often but is a concern, is an Emrakul or S&T sitting in my hand where any other spell would give me enough storm to win.
Anyways, sorry for the wall of text. Hoping you guys could give some input on the list or just thrash on it lol.
Thanks
I played today against the same death & taxes, but with massacre in my SB. And I can say that it's awsome. A wrath of god for free. Just PERFECT!
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Black Knight
@ Brucewayne: That list looks pretty solid. I haven't played Rev614 for a while, but what do you think about running Gitaxian Probes in the deck? That may reduce some of the strain that LDV can cause.
Another interesting topic is the protection package. In the past, some lists would run Force+Duress to deal with hate, while others end up using Thoughtseize/Duress. Force lets you be more flexible at the cost of a blue card, but is also awkward with LED. In my experience, running additional Lotus Petals can be good against Tempo, and also gives you really fast starts with Show and Tell and DD.
Thanks for the reply,
Probe- Probes work well with IU no doubt and I believe everyone has there own opinion on Meditate/IU. For me, I like Meditate just cuz it plays around Spell Snare. I may seem overly cautious about Snare lol, it's just I don't see a reason to play into it if I can avoid it in general. Lastly, I wouldn't know what to cut for them lol. If I found room I think I would add Ponder over Probe first as Ponder is just awesome.
Protection- Ya, I remember when REV614 used to run Force. I've personally never liked it in the deck however. There were times when Force was in my hand and I needed an extra storm to win and a Duress effect in place of it would have got the job done. Also, I feel that discard works better with S&T because you get to also see if your opponent has a KotR/O-Ring/Edict thingy in their hand. Force will help you resolve S&T for one mana cheaper but wont stop the O-ring from coming down too.
Petals- I always liked how the German lists, or w/e list, ran only 1 petal to increase the amount of business you run. With the other Tendrils decks there are times when you keep drawing petals, rituals and LEDS when you just wanna draw some kinda business and win already. While the reduced speed sux I prefer the added consistency. This is just my personal opinion though. Some people like the extra petals.
I also forgot to post my SB which also needs some help:
2 Echoing Truth
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Death Mark
2 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
2 Pithing Needle
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Blazing Archon
Echoing Truth, Slaughter Pact, Death Mark, Rebuild- I believe this is pretty basic Tendril Storm board stuff and doesn't really need explanation lol.
Wipe Away- This comes in when SI/Emrakul is the main option your going for. Like against Reanimator or Counterbalance. Add it to the DD pile to Stop Blazing Archon/Humility and the like.
Pithing Needle- Good card in gerneral not just for the SI/Emrakul plan. Shutting down Wasteland is nice regardless lol. Also, stops alot of things in Merfolk like CURSECATHCER!
Thoughtseize/Inquisition- With these boarded in it gives you 11 total discard effects. I believe is was the Dredge players that come up with the #11 being the optimal amount of Dredgers to run to see one in your opening hand. Pretty solid against TA/Canadian ***** as discarding one of the few clocks they have in the deck can buy you a few extra turns. Also used against other combo decks.
Blazing Archon- Merfolk. This just shuts them down. S&T him in and the Merfolk player has to draw 2 of their 2-3 Dismembers they run to kill him. Which is difficult considering they don't really run any library manipulation and that they probably boarded out dismember game 2 lol.
Yeah...yeah...Wall of text...SORRY!
Oh yeah, I didn't realize you weren't running Ponder. If you can make the space, I would definitely sneak a set of Ponders in your list. Btw, I didn't have any preferences on any of the cards I listed, I just was throwing out ideas.
@ Probe: I didn't mean running IU + Probes, I just meant that running Probes is pretty strong in Rev614, even with Meditate. Probe is pretty sweet with LDV, and also allows you to make some cheap Emrakul piles. Obviously you don't have a whole lot of room in your list, though but it is something to keep in mind.
Also, you might want to try Flusterstorm in the board (I love that card!), but I don't want to overwhelm you with ideas.
The last idea I'll throw at you is this: Have you ever considered moving the entire Show and Tell Emrakul package to the sideboard? In the past, I've played with builds that are mostly straight DD maindeck, and postboard you surprise the opponent by boarding in 4 SnT and 3-4 Emrakul. Something like this might address your problem.The main problem I've been having, the doesn't happen that often but is a concern, is an Emrakul or S&T sitting in my hand where any other spell would give me enough storm to win
All this Rev614 talk makes me want to play the deck again. :)
Ah, those are some good ideas. I kinda like the Emrakul part in the SB plan, but for now I think I'll try just moving the SI/COF/Needle part to the board. There aren't many mach-ups where its "needed" as Counter-Top is hardly run anymore and can just move it in for Reanimator. This would give me room for 3 Ponders. Will test out Flusterstorm.
Thank you very much for the suggestions!
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