I understand the logic of playing the Island and passing. However, odds are if they are playing a blue deck and they do not have Force of Will, they will likely have Spell Pierce or Spell Snare in their opening seven given the frequency that those appear in Merfolk, BUG and UW Stoneblade (which are arguably the most popular blue decks in Legacy). So allowing them to play an Island and pass the turn only puts more pressure on us to either find ways for paying for the Spell Pierce, or finding a way to Duress the Spell Snare away and then go off. Even against the Merfolk lists running only two copies of Spell Pierce, their odds go from having a 39.5% chance of stopping us turn one via Force of Will, to greater than 55% chance of having a hand that contains either Spell Pierce or Force of Will which we have to deal with on turn two if they plan an Island and pass. Against some of the Team America decks or UW Stoneblade decks that play Spell Snare as a 3-4 of, the odds go up to between 61% and 65% that they now have a live counter against us turn two that we have to deal with and we cannot play around.Originally Posted by AriLax
I looked over the math regarding Ad Nauseam turn one after your assertion and I agree with you that my analysis on casting Ad Nauseam turn one seemed a little bleak. Given that the average mana cost of the deck is less than 1, you statically should be able to flip at least 20 cards before you must stop which makes it probable that you will find the necessary combination of cards to kill turn one. You analysis that stopping if necessary and killing on turn two is also enlightening. Based on this analysis, I think casting Ad Nauseam turn one seems like a better play than playing the Island and passing.
Would you be willing to share your thought process by which you arrived at your conclusion regarding playing an Island and the use of Brainstorm against varying decks?
Yeah what people fail to realize about AdN is that if you fizzle you can very likely go off next turn since you still get to sculpt a godlike 7 cards with maybe some artifact's onboard to help as well.
I would go for the turn one AdN with that hand. 40% chance they have FoW, if they don't you win because guess what you resolved yawgmoth's bargain and as a sidenote bargain is broken. I see zero reason to not keep that hand, in fact that's the type of hand I wish I drew every game generally speaking because it has everything you want and 6 cards will likely be worse unless you open up with black source, dark rit, LED x2, duress, infernal tutor on the play because that hand is hard to beat.
I've seen lists with gitaxian probe over the grim's and a land sometimes; if you want to increase speed, you replace the 2 grim's with chrome moxen and maybe one land so as to make ad nauseam a lot better with 7 zero drop artifacts to draw into with AdN. I never liked grim tutor in here in the first place, the card is really slow and loses you 3 life so it is quite awful with ad nauseam.
If you want a faster UB list I would try out this:
Land 15
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
Artifacts 10
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Accel 8
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
One of's 3
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Tutors 4
4 Infernal Tutor
Protection 7
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
Cantrips 13
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
SB
Meta dependant
On the list I just posted though you might want to tweak the cantrips a little bit; probes add speed to the deck but aren't the best at sculpting but the advantage of them is, again, speed since they can cycle for free and peek at the opponent's hand.
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I love Gitaxian Probes. Today they've helped me make this play:
My opening hand was: LED, LED, LED, Cabal Ritual, Polluted Delta, Infernal Tutor, Gitaxian Probe. So I thought I was feeling lucky and laid down the Delta and paid for the Probe with 2 life. It showed a Dark Ritual. Then I fetched Swamp went Ritual, Infernal Tutor, LED, LED , LED into Ad Nauseam. With enough floating I was feeling even better. But Ad Nauseam showed IGG and another LED. So I went IGG, LED, return rituals and tutor to hand. Tendrils for lethal...
I was very luck indeed but that probe just enabled that explosive turn 1 kill :)
It sounds like you eventually went the IGG route and you knew what your opponent had in hand after the Probe. Why not just Infernal Tutor into IGG for the sure win instead of risking it with Ad Nauseam?
You're right, I was so focused on Ad Nauseam as my first turn kill condition it didn't occur to me that I would easily generate enough storm with IGG :)
There was an ANT deck featured at the GP this weekend. The maindeck was interesting with Past in Flames and Ad Nauseam as the engines, though it did not run Burning Wish or Rite of Flame. It still kept a copy of Ill-Gotten Gains in the sideboard. Another interesting decision was the lack of Thoughtseize and Preordain. The list was running Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy in lieu of the aforementioned. The interaction between the two is interesting and appealing.
Here is a link to the article
Here is the list:
16 lands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Crystal Vein
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
44 other spells
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Echoing Truth
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Slaughter Pact
4 Xantid Swarm
I am starting to like Past in Flames in ANT more and more. It feels quite good against Aggro-Control decks especially if you have a slower hand and have to eat a lot of damage (e.g. Fish, Bant...) It is not amazing but it is very solid and seems even maindeckable.
In my opinion this deck is using it better than TES:
-It has Cabal Rituals to generate enough Mana off a resolved Past in Flames easier
-TES has a lot of Rituals too but Rite of Flames is not really good when cast with Flashback.
-ANT is a bit slower than TES and gets to a point where casting a Ad Nauseam is risky easier. If you are not playing a simple Aggro Deck (Zoo, Affinity...) Past in Flames is the way to go.
-Having to support less colors makes it easier to pay the flashback costs of the spells.
Currently I use it quite often against Aggro Control and am thinking of adding it to the maindeck.
The list I posted above was piloted by Elie Pichon who made top eight at the GP with it this morning. He just advanced to the semifinal round defeating Imperial Painter. He's now squaring off against Delver RUG.
Damnit he didn't correctly de sideboard before game one so he lost the match. That's a damn shame, he could have potentially won the whole thing if not for accidentally leaving out past in flames in the SB and whatever else. Canadian thresh player got lucky in that regard in that he automatically won a game.
It is intriguing to see a list with cabal therapy as protection as well as 4 probe's with only 8 hand sculpting cantrips in the form of ponder + brainstorm. I never liked 12 one mana cantrips since cantripping into more cantrips is quite slow.
1 Crystal vein also stands out. I would rather that be a chrome mox almost to improve AdN if only by a little. Then again it could be a good card I haven't tried sol lands since mystical's banning.
Past in flames in that list reminds me why I like it. It's actually good against decks with countermagic while IGG is usually chaff unless you crack like 3 LED's before casting IGG or otherwise have a boatload of mana to return protection spells.
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Well if the Past in Flames is included does it make sense to add the Burning Wishes as well while we already destabilized the manabase?
I don't think Past in Flames is good enough to warrant dropping Grim Tutors, if you have them.
I really like the list Pichon took to a top 4 finish at the GP in Amsterdam.
I do wonder when/why the Grim Tutor is useful. I can see it's a powerful card but the three mana and three life does feel clunky. Is it to up the Tutor count? To get around Spell Snare? Can someone with more Grim Tutor experience elaborate a bit on that?
They where actually useful in the quarter final. In game two, my fellow dane, the Imp. Painter player dropped a Phyrexian Revoker naming Lion's Eye Diamond. After resolving Ad Nauseam, he couldn't generate blue mana for Chain of Vapor, but drew enough black mana to play Grim Tutor > Tendrils of Agony.
Grim Tutor is unfortunately the "best" tutor available that is on color and doesn't have card disadvantage. The fact that it dodges spell snare is an afterthought. It can find singleton SB answers as well.
I'm sorry we can't run 7-8 Infernal Tutors and that 4 doesn't cut it. I'm also sorry Burning Wish either requires you to sideboard an Infernal if you really want to Tendrils kill anyone with it. As is, if you want to kill someone with Tendrils of Agony, Grim Tutor is the best option to ensure you find some tutor effect every game.
I made 37th in Amsterdam with UBw ANT. 2 of my 4 losses are to blame on myself (Against the Painter guy who top-8'd and Team America by some belgian pro), another was going all-in on turn-1 on the play in g3 against the UGr Thresh deck that made the finals and the last one I just wasn't in the game against another UGr Thresh deck.
I beat UGr Thresh, Dredge, RUG Thresh with Punishing Fires, Dredge, Doomsday, Maverick, Elf Combo, Maverick.
I beat Painter with blue, Goblins, Reanimate and The Rock in the trial I 5-0'd (the other finalist already had byes) for byes.
With better play I should have at least made top-16. But 2-3 hours of sleep a night for half a week and not eating during the day doesn't really help.
My list:
I do want a Slaughter Pact side as a situation came up against Choke and Teeg that I could rit,cabal,cabal,grim->pact,led,it and win but I didn't have blue mana.Business: 8
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor (Amazing)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Cantrips: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe (Don't want less than 4 with white)
1 Preordain
Protection: 7
3 Orim’s Chant
2 Silence
2 Duress (Perhaps 7 chants is better though)
Acceleration: 17
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
Lands: 15
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
// Sideboard: 15
3 Dark Confidant (Very dissapointing)
3 Extirpate (Not bad, I beat reanimator in the trial and dredge twice in the GP)
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Path to Exile (Really liked em against hatebears and reanimate)
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Duress
And I definately want to replace the Confidants. The extra chants/duress can be replaced if there's anything better.
I played UBw ANT. Standard list from Ari, but -1 Land and the disruption was 2 Duress, 2 Thoughtseize and 3 Chants.
Instead of Dark Confidant in the SB I played Ancestral Visions against BUG (Discard) and Control. I realy liked them although I didn't make day 2 after I was 6-0 and 12-1 in games. Lost round 7 due to a error from my side while having the match win in hand. Round 8 against Tempo Thresh I realy was not into that game, stifle waste game 1 and flooded havely in game 2 drawing 5 lands in a row. Round 9 I think I was still a little on tild from my mistake and round 8 and could not win game 2 while I had 12 cards in my hand (after visions resolved).
Regarding your list.
The Path's are very interesting and I realy need to test those probes.
Regarding Grim Tutor.
I realy liked them and the fact they play around Spell Snare was relevant in more games then I could rember.
Regarding Chants.
I love them, they make allot of games so much better.
Last edited by Zieby; 10-25-2011 at 08:40 AM.
No I don't have them, that's why I'm elaborating on other options while trying to get additional benefit from a third color with Past in Flames :)
I had previously been running TNT with 4 Burning Wish + 3 Infernal Tutor (with a 4th Tutor in the sideboard as a target for Burning Wish), since it's occasionally useful to Burning Wish into a Tutor to set up a better IGG loop or an Ad Nauseam. I recall there were a few others who played a similar type of list.
I'm assuming everyone is testing Past in Flames. For those of you with Past of Flames in the wishboard, have you wanted to move the 4th Infernal Tutor into the main (possibly cutting a Burning Wish)? It seems that Past in Flames is strong enough that I rarely want to Wish for an Infernal Tutor anymore. (Of course, this begs the question why I didn't just run a 4 IT/3 BW split in the first place, but the flexibility justified the "slowness" at the time.)
I had previously been running TNT with 4 Burning Wish + 3 Infernal Tutor (with a 4th Tutor in the sideboard as a target for Burning Wish), since it's occasionally useful to Burning Wish into a Tutor to set up a better IGG loop or an Ad Nauseam. I recall there were a few others who played a similar type of list.
I'm assuming everyone is testing Past in Flames. For those of you with Past of Flames in the wishboard, have you wanted to move the 4th Infernal Tutor into the main (possibly cutting a Burning Wish)? It seems that Past in Flames is strong enough that I rarely want to Wish for an Infernal Tutor anymore. (Of course, this begs the question why I didn't just run a 4 IT/3 BW split in the first place, but the flexibility justified the "slowness" at the time.)
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