[Deck] Dredge

[Anusien]

Sideboard:
4 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
4 Winds of Change
1 Ichorid
4 Firestorm

If you're running Feldman's list, that's what I would suggest for your metagame. Personally I said "screw the Nature's Claims", but clearly there are Leylines in your metagame. If you only see Leyline and don't see Wheel of Sun and Moon or something, these can probably be Chain of Vapors.

[DarkJester]

Firestorm is just bonkers... HokusSchmokus told very good arguments to support this. And really, this idea was a result of the MM-Printing? Read the opening post, even Parcher played a Firestorm main...

[HokusSchmokus]

Sooooo arrived in Amsterdam, and after getting in a cab where the driver wanted to sell me coke in 3 languages, I had nothing better to do than taking the GPT down, first try 10-1 in games.Like a boss. Firestorm was a blast all day long.

[Godmode]

Sooooo arrived in Amsterdam, and after getting in a cab where the driver wanted to sell me coke in 3 languages, I had nothing better to do than taking the GPT down, first try 10-1 in games.Like a boss. Firestorm was a blast all day long.

Good job dude! Keep updating us and if you could provide us some quick reports would be awesome!

[Gui]

I'd like to hear thoughts about improving the Storm-matchup, maybe I'll just find 3 slots in SB to fit some Brainstorms/Winds of Change.

My firestorm list looks a lot like yours (and german in general), but with 13 dredgers instead of 4th Ichorid... my list didn't change much since I suggested my firestorm version here.

The first thing to do to improve combo is to grant that you are not losing to yourself
Don't cut the 3rd tarnished, as it will reduce your chance to draw a perfect hand against combo more than WoC will help. But if you do, use it as sideboard instead of a WoC.
Besides that, keep in mind what you have to side out and in, your list got 4 ichorid, but need to side in a DR, so you have 3 slots. I believe the right is siding 2 DR targets and having 2 DR. That leaves you room for a single WoC.


@ Firestorm: I've said it here that I had mixed feeling about this card, but then, when MM came and I started using it maindeck, it just looked like it was doing better than tribe, and I never missed tribe. My opinion is to use it maindeck as well.

[Mojeh]

@Gui: So, in your opinion, against Tendrils.deck we just play without Ichorid on G2/G3?

I don't like the idea of playing without Ichorid at all. Ichorid is fast enough to reduce the efficiency of Ad Nauseam, and you are gonna need it's body to reanimate your sadistic Hypnotist, depending on Narcomoebas and probably on PImp to get 3 guys on the table seems risky. Keep in mind we no longer have Tribe.
So, I usually side out 3 of the following: 1 Ichorid, 1 Thug/darkblast, 1 Tarnished, 1 Firestorm.

I agree we can't lose to ourselves, specially in this matchup, but 14 lands are often enough when you just need 1 in your opening hand and you are not gonna suffer with Wasteland.

[Gui]

@Gui: So, in your opinion, against Tendrils.deck we just play without Ichorid on G2/G3?

I don't like the idea of playing without Ichorid at all. Ichorid is fast enough to reduce the efficiency of Ad Nauseam, and you are gonna need it's body to reanimate your sadistic Hypnotist, depending on Narcomoebas and probably on PImp to get 3 guys on the table seems risky. Keep in mind we no longer have Tribe.
So, I usually side out 3 of the following: 1 Ichorid, 1 Thug/darkblast, 1 Tarnished, 1 Firestorm.

I agree we can't lose to ourselves, specially in this matchup, but 14 lands are often enough when you just need 1 in your opening hand and you are not gonna suffer with Wasteland.

I don't know, siding that way you'd reduce even more the chances of having a fast hand, and our best chance is to try to win before Ichorid can even be used, on turn 3.
I agree, tribe makes it easier to re-use a GGT and helps to DR or CT faster, but this doesn't make ichorid better/faster.

If you side combo business out, there's no reason to side in WoC to increase the chance to combo, you will most likely be reducing the chance more by siding a land
than increasing it by siding WoC in.

[Mojeh]

Yes, you are right about WoC, indeed it makes no sense siding out business for 5-8 Breakthrough.
I just can't feel comfortable without a single Ichorid in a game, that change makes CT and DR much more difficult to cast, and they are our best chance at all. And sometimes, if you hit a nice CT, and have plenty of Bridges, Ichorid can do the job. You make, let's say 3 Tokens with CT on Ichorid, and next turn, if you have 2 Ichorid's on GY you can beatdown 12 damage, making Ad Nauseam much weaker, and come on, this situation is not that rare.

What if we enter with 3 Gitaxian Probe in SB? They could replace Careful Study in this matchup. The information from Probe it's very important to play around their clock, and makes CT much better.

[ukyo_rulz]

Hi guys. I played Dredge today in a local tournament with 71 players, winding up fifth overall (and getting a Plateau and Jester's Cap for my efforts). This was my first time playing Dredge in a tournament (or against a real person, actually. I only gold-fished with Dredge before). Please tell me if you see any mistakes I made, especially with regard to sideboarding. Here's the list I used:

MD:
4x Golgari Gravetroll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bridge from Below
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Putrid Imp
4x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Ichorid
2x Dread Return
3x Tarnished Citadel
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

SB:
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Firestorm
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
1x Angel of Despair

Round 1: Snapcaster Mage.dec
Game 1 I set up a couple of bridges to make zombie tokens for me, but he has SFM for the third turn Batterskull. His life climbs to 31, but eventually I amass enough zombies to alpha-strike him. Game 2 I bring in Ancient grudges for Breakthroughs and play a 15/15 Troll on turn two, with maybe three or four zombies to go with it. They wind up going the distance.

Round 2: Snapcaster Mage.dec
Game 1 I somehow dredge all of my bridges into the yard on the first two turns, and he is quickly overwhelmed by zombies. Game 2 I bring in Ancient grudges, but he has Leyline of the Void in his opening hand, which I have no out for. I pretend to have Nature's Claim in my deck, and wait for him to "win" the game without finding out that I have no way of winning. Eventually he plays Jace and tell him I'm conceding because he'll just Jace my Nature's Claims away. After game two I side my Breakthroughs back in.

Pretending to have Nature's Claim pays off because game 3 he mulligans aggressively for Leyline. He actually has it on his 6-card hand, but he mulligans again because he has no land. Yes! He is forced to keep his five-card hand, which has a quick Tarmogoyf but not much else. He is actually able to stay in the game by playing Deeds to KO my zombies, and defending well with his Tarmogoyfs. I am able to get a Leyline off his hand before he draws into the land to cast it, and eventually Zombies win it for me again.

Round 3: UG Elves
Game one I have a 13/13 Troll and some zombies turn 2, which wins it for me. Game 2 I bring in Elesh Norn and Firestorms for Breakthrough and an Ichorid. He uses the Glimpse combo to draw into his hate, which eats my GY. He eventually wins via Intuition for Vengevines, which quickly kill me. Game three was an epic struggle, with me going DDD and dredging 6 cards per turn with Troll (I have a Phantasmagorian loop going) but with no good cards hitting the yard. My bad dredges give him the time to set up Vengevines, which threaten to kill me. I am forced to skip dredging, to try and draw into land for the Firestorm in my hand. I am lucky and I draw into a Gemstone Mine, which I use to clear the board. Soon after I reanimate Elesh Norn, which allows me to kill my opponent in the last of our five "overtime" turns.

Round 4: High Tide
Game one I keep a DDD hand with Phantasmagorian, which proves to be a bad decision because my Dredges keep coming up empty. Eventually I am comboed out. Game 2 I just side in Iona for an Ichorid. My hand is quick and disruptive, and I am able to reanimate Iona, which my opponent concedes to. Game three I draw into multiple Cabal Therapies naturally, which I use to ravage my opponent's hand. He is further backed into a corner because he is forced to use his Cunning Wish to get Ravenous Trap to eat my GY. Eventually I win via Ichorid and Zombie beats.

Round 5: Manaless Dredge
Game one I win a long battle of attrition, with both sides amassing zombies and me eventually coming out on top. Game 2 I side in Leylines and Elesh Norn for Breakthroughs and an Ichorid. I have Leyline in my opener and my opponent is unable to do anything about it before I kill him.

Rounds 6-7: ID

Top 8: NO Bant
Game one I quickly lose to turn 3 Progenitus. Game 2 I side in Firestorms for Breakthroughs and an Elesh Norn for an Ichorid (no idea if that's a good strategy). It doesn't matter, though, because my opponent has a fast Progenitus for the second game in a row.

Top 3 Lessons Learned:
1. Being on the draw is a great thing for Dredge, and the extra card on the first turn really can be the difference between winning and losing. I chose to draw first every game and it helped me a lot.
2. Phantasmagorian is a true MVP. He provided me with an uncounterable discard outlet that frustrated my opponents all day long. The fact that he is black and can be eaten by Ichorid was also relevant multiple times.
3. Ancient Grudge probably should have been Nature's Claim. I just don't like having zero outs to Leyline.

[SHABOOGS]

Went to an event that had 73 players and got a record of 5-1-1 with the list below. Finished 5th after 7 rounds and ended 6th after losing at the first round of the playoffs.

Enchantments:
4 Bridge from Below

Creatures:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
3 Phantasmagorian
2 Golgari Thug

Spells:
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

Lands:
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard:
3 Memory's Journey (vs Reanimator and Surgical Extraction)
3 Ancient Grudge (vs Artifact Graveyard Hate)
3 Nature's Claim (vs Leyline of the Void)
3 Chain of Vapor (vs Leyline of the Void)
1 Ray of Revelation (vs Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/Moat)
1 Terastodon (vs Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/Moat and Lands.dec)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (vs Tribal and Aggro)

These were my matchups:

Rd 1: Win vs Bant (2-0)
Rd 2: Win vs RUG (2-1)
Rd 3: Win vs Zoo (2-0)
Rd 4: Win vs Countertop (2-1)
Rd 5: Lost vs UW Control (0-2)
Rd 6: Win vs RUG (2-1)
Rd 7: ID with Mirror

Lost to BUG in three games packing a playset of Leyline of the Void during the playoffs. Had to mull down to four trying to look for an answer and didn't see a single Chain of Vapor or Nature's Claim in the last game

Got a Plateau and a Jester's Cap tho

I'm planning to add 3 Wispmare's in the Memory's Journey slot to fight leylines coz that whole experience trying to look for an answer made me think that 6 cards to fight LoTV isn't enough even though I don't see it that often.

[ukyo_rulz]

Went to an event that had 73 players and got a record of 5-1-1 with the list below. Finished 5th after 7 rounds and ended 6th after losing at the first round of the playoffs.

LOL, hello there bro! I thought there were 71 people at the event but I guess there were actually 73? That top 8 was rough for us. Leylines and maindeck hate all around.

[SHABOOGS]

LOL, hello there bro! I thought there were 71 people at the event but I guess there were actually 73? That top 8 was rough for us. Leylines and maindeck hate all around.

I heard the turnout was 73 players but I'll ask the TO again just to be sure. :)

[HokusSchmokus]

So back from Amsterdam!
After stomping through the GPT on Friday I was very confident with the List:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Putrid Imp
4 Firestorm
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Dread Return

SB: 1 Dread Return
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Elesh ZORN, Great Genocide
3 Faerie Macabre



After the tournament...well let's just say I'm tempted to throw the deck away. I went 2-4 on day 1. I fizzled like every second Draw x (no dredgers) lost the mirrow because of me dredging 4 Bridges in a Dredge 6 and got paired against GW THREE FUCKING TIMES after standing 5-1.Won every single G1 that day (Firestorm!!!) but it wasn't enough. Very disappointing. But I came to some conclusions: I have to cut the Dread Return MD. Period. I never cast it g1 and won.Actually I would have made day2 very sure if the Dread Return would have been either a Darkblast or a Tribe.
SB will change then: +1 Dread Return, -3 Faerie Macabre +2 Coffin PurgeSo after all, while very disappointing, (day 2 would have been very likely a good day for dredge, a lot of Threshhold all around, but all the day2 Dredgers failed because of a) bad lists and b) bad lists. Burning Bernd Brendemühl didn't make top 8 with a good list because apparently there are Threshold decks that run Leyline side. Yes, the top8 guy.)I learned a lot. Best move of the day: Firestorm for 7. Yes seven, against a GW guy. Burned Knight, Goyf, Ooze, Him and 3 Narcos end of his turn and just swung for lethal on turn 3 ;D. Fun times!

On the Ichorid discussion: I can understand cutting 1 Ichorid main because of the limited fodder.But I don't advise it. They are just too good, and you can almost always protect them from Extraction and STP and stuff.Or at least get tokens before they are removed. The thing is: They are probably the only way to win game 1 against combo.

Edit: In Amsterdam we also noticed that everybody playing Reanimator and wanting to pimp it has to play german cards. The wording is just insane.

[Gui]

@HokusSchmokus

What do you think that we can do to make the GW matchup better?

What if we enter with 3 Gitaxian Probe in SB? They could replace Careful Study in this matchup. The information from Probe it's very important to play around their clock, and makes CT much better.

I don't think so. Careful is the most important spell to be on the deck in this matchup, in my opinion, because it is both a discard and a draw spell. If you really want to take stuff out that isn't ichorid, do that, but don't side in WoC. Side DR targets instead, like:

-1 Ichorid, -1 Tarnished, +2 DR targets

... and save your SB slots for something else. Because, if you side out tarnished for WoC, you are trading six of one for half a dozen of the other. Unless, of course, that you consider WoC's disruption good enough to win the game by itself

[Izor]

So back from Amsterdam!

After the tournament...well let's just say I'm tempted to throw the deck away. I went 2-4 on day 1.

That's really unfortunate. Would have loved to see a well-built (which seems to be rare these days) Dredge deck top8. But what are you gonna do. Nevertheless, congratz for an insane GPT on friday !

I fizzled like every second Draw x (no dredgers) lost the mirrow because of me dredging 4 Bridges in a Dredge 6 and got paired against GW THREE FUCKING TIMES after standing 5-1.Won every single G1 that day (Firestorm!!!) but it wasn't enough. Very disappointing. But I came to some conclusions: I have to cut the Dread Return MD. Period. I never cast it g1 and won.Actually I would have made day2 very sure if the Dread Return would have been either a Darkblast or a Tribe.

Now, as I'm still going back and forth with Firestorms main (God, I can't tell you how much I actually love and hate that card), I'd be interested in whether your Dredger-fizzles were due to Firestorms. Sounds a lot like it, for you don't usually whiff with a Tribe or PImp in play, especially not with 12 Dredgers.

Best move of the day: Firestorm for 7. Yes seven, against a GW guy. Burned Knight, Goyf, Ooze, Him and 3 Narcos end of his turn and just swung for lethal on turn 3 ;D. Fun times!

I'm sure you didn't Firestorm for seven during your opponent's turn, cause that would imply illegal actions ;) But Kudos ! Sometimes Firestorm's just broken.

Though, I'm a bit confused... Are you sure it was turn 3 ? Not that it mattered, but I can't come up with a scenario where you have 3 Narcomoebas, several Bridges and Ichorids but still a full grip on turn 2. KotR, Ooze plus Goyf also seems a bit too much for turn 3.

On the Ichorid discussion: I can understand cutting 1 Ichorid main because of the limited fodder. But I don't advise it. They are just too good, and you can almost always protect them from Extraction and STP and stuff. Or at least get tokens before they are removed. The thing is: They are probably the only way to win game 1 against combo.

I fully agree that 4 Ichys is really good to have right now.

But why do you think they're the only tool to win against Combo game 1? In my expierience, exploding with a draw effect on turn 2 and Therapying them multiple times while leaving lethal on the board for your next turn is our best weapon. And that doesn't necessarily involve any Ichorids... I even cut them down to two after sideboarding, in order to sneak my Hypnotist and Iona in.

What do you think that we can do to make the GW matchup better?

I'm pretty sure Hokus already did everything he could in order to improve that matchup. I mean, 4 Firestorm main, 2 Elesh in the side.. What else could we do? Seems like that's just a pretty tough matchup and that there's not much we can do about it. Unless we run Perish side...

[HokusSchmokus]

That's really unfortunate. Would have loved to see a well-built (which seems to be rare these days) Dredge deck top8. But what are you gonna do. Nevertheless, congratz for an insane GPT on friday !



Now, as I'm still going back and forth with Firestorms main (God, I can't tell you how much I actually love and hate that card), I'd be interested in whether your Dredger-fizzles were due to Firestorms. Sounds a lot like it, for you don't usually whiff with a Tribe or PImp in play, especially not with 12 Dredgers.



I'm sure you didn't Firestorm for seven during your opponent's turn, cause that would imply illegal actions ;) But Kudos ! Sometimes Firestorm's just broken.

Though, I'm a bit confused... Are you sure it was turn 3 ? Not that it mattered, but I can't come up with a scenario where you have 3 Narcomoebas, several Bridges and Ichorids but still a full grip on turn 2. KotR, Ooze plus Goyf also seems a bit too much for turn 3.



I fully agree that 4 Ichys is really good to have right now.

But why do you think they're the only tool to win against Combo game 1? In my expierience, exploding with a draw effect on turn 2 and Therapying them multiple times while leaving lethal on the board for your next turn is our best weapon. And that doesn't necessarily involve any Ichorids... I even cut them down to two after sideboarding, in order to sneak my Hypnotist and Iona in.





I'm pretty sure Hokus already did everything he could in order to improve that matchup. I mean, 4 Firestorm main, 2 Elesh in the side.. What else could we do? Seems like that's just a pretty tough matchup and that there's not much we can do about it. Unless we run Perish side...

Ah I messed up. End of my turn 3 for 7. Fizzled a dredge 6 but had 3 narcs in it. 8 cards in hand at end of turn he tries to eat PImp in my yard, Response firestorm for 7.

I already like my GW matchup quite a lot. Befor the GP I was positive against GW. Well not anymore...

Also I don't think a lot of my fizzles were due to Firestorm, I just never had any Dredgers I could discard

[Godmode]

Grand Prix - Amsterdam


Top32 Decklists: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050

Grand Prix - Amsterdam: Dmitry S. Moiseev reached the 21st place. Here's the decklist: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51163

Dmitry S. Moiseev's list:
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Null Rod

[Godmode]

GP Amsterdam - Undefeated Decklists: Youmelia Gay made it to the list. Here's the decklist: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=51132

Youmelia Gay's list:
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
3 Narcomoeba
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Gigapede
1 Platinum Angel
1 River Kelpie
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Surgical Extraction


GP Amsterdam - Trial Winners: Kaiser Henning made 1st place! Here's the decklist: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=51140

Kaiser Henning's list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Firestorm
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below

3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Sadistic Hypnotist

[Gui]

What is "udefeated decklists" supposed to be? Day 1 undefeated? Day 1+ Day 2?

I believe Trial Winner is HokusSchmokus, right?

The 21st is a interesting dredge, U/B dredge, it is. Not to judge a 21st decklist, but the list looks a lot low on dredgers.

[joemauer]

I have found the best way to improve the GW matchup is play LED. GW can't handle the speed of LED, but then again it becomes a different deck.