Whats your thoughts on Past In Flames and 4 colour mana bases.Originally Posted by AriLax
Play TES?
One of ANT's strengths is that it plays with a very solid mana base. By going up to four colours I'm not sure that I see any real difference between the deck you are proposing and TES.
That's not to say it's a bad idea, but you need to recognise what you are trading away.
The majority of this thread is playing UBr (past in flames), Ari Lax is proposing UBw (orim's chant), I would like to hear his thoughts on possibly hybridizing those approaches as a way forward as I doubt most see this deck working without past in flames.
A year ago Zoo/Ichorid/Junk/Affinity/Loam filled the meta while Reanimator, Hive Mind and Spiral Tide didn't exist. 3c/4c-Landstill and Thresh were nonexistent. Now Uw, BUG, and RUG seems to be everywhere. With Misstep out of the picture, everyone and their mother decided to switch from countering 1 drops to countering every spell that is cmc=2. Before, all you have to worry about was going off turn 1 against Fow. Without Mystical Tutor and a low threat density, every single Island is a potential nightmare because now its Fow+Snare, with Stifles and Flusterstorms/V.Clique/SCM/Surg.Extraction on the side. If you don't Chant chances are you'd be falling off the top tables. I think its time for Storm players to adapt too, by playing 3-4 colors, more business, Past in Flames (Burning Wish.. Doomsday).
I played:
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sea
2 Tundra
9 Fetch
5 Chants
2 Duress
At the gp. And I'm probably going to 7 chants. I liked double Tundra as you really only want to use the W and B when you go off and prefer lands to tap for U the turns before. If I'd cut the swamp I would run a Scrubland though.
My current concern is the sb. I have a few slots open after cutting Confidants but I don't know what to replace them with. Maybe Swarms are good as Canadian Thresh seems to board out their burn (all 5 of my opponents on the GP did) but I'm not sure.
I currently have:
3 Extirpate (If reanimate popularity drops I'll consider cutting these again)
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Path to Exile (Better than chain against hatebears sometimes and pretty good against reanimate)
1 Hurkyl's Recall (The lonely out against too much crazy hate, relevant at times)
*Room for extra chants/discard/swarms etc.*
Don't think PiF is good, esp. if you are Chanting to make IGG live against Force. Don't think Wish is good, especially if you are going to sideboard 4 Empty the Warrens like I am. Don't think Rite is good, unless you have Wish. None of the red cards impress me at all. Also, doubt 4C is doable without Gemstone Mine.
4 empty the warrens for reanimator?
Unsure. Chant helps a ton there as a real Time Walk if they Entomb, might be unnecessary. If you make 10 Goblins on 2 regularly I might consider it, thats enough to beat anything that isnt Sphinx.
4 ETW backed by 4 Chant was an extremely good plan when we were first making the transition from Intuition to Grim Tutor in Tendrils decks. The real reason why we abandoned it was the metagame adapting to the plan, partially aided by the rise of CB adding even more EEs to the mix. With CB being held down by the tempo decks and G/W decks, ETW is probably a fine plan again.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Just to be clear, Ari you are supporting the warrens just off mana from petals or LEDs?
Warrens seems good against reanimator for a few reasons in my head .. just want to spell them out.
1. They have probably sided out elsh norn and blazing arcon, so they might not have much left to counter 10 tokens.
2. You can storm for less so... you can storm quicker.
3. putting them down to half their life means they have less options when it comes to their reanimation spells, 10 damage to reanimate hurts.
What on earth are you boarding out? IGG, Ad Naus, maybe 1 Preordain...Grims?
I'm still not sure how great this plan is against Reanimator, as if you lost game 1 they can still have Sphinx, Archon, and Elesh Norn for game 3. It just doesn't seem like you can beat an Entomb hand with this plan. Additionally, without the TES ritual set, it's still very reasonable for them to keep you off four mana with either FoW or Spell Pierce.
I'm interested in how it has tested out. We can jam some games when I get back in town if you want.
I've found reanimator to be slightly in your favor with 3 extirpate. The matchup I have way more problems with is team america. No matter how I sideboard this matchup is still very unfavourable. (Normally I side 3 confidants 2 SDT)
Does anyone had succes in this matchup with other sideboard cards?
Played against U/w Snapcaster using my previous UB list, he boarded into Flusterstorms and Extractions. I managed to win the round on the back of 2-3 Duresses. Lost a game when he had FoW+Snare and I didn't draw a single Duress, could have gone IT for a second Duress. Made me rethink my position on the idea of splashing -w and/or -r. 3 Probe/4 Duress/2-3 Tseize or Cabal Therapy (as suggested a few pages ago) may just be good enough. I am really hesitant on diluting the manabase or playing rainbow lands with 3-4 fetchlands so I might stay traditional for now.
Why not just go up to 6-7 chant effects? Is the mana not good enough? or is the split on duress/ chant effects just nice since it helps you save mana on the fundamental turn/ disrupt other combo? I just imagine that having 6-7 chants means if you resolve it you win, and daze is useless against it.
I'm mainly just asking, I'll be messing with it sometime in the next week. I know people have done it before (all chants for disruption) but I was always curious as to why the split, since duress is mainly snagging counterspells anyways, at least 80% of the time.
I played the disruption suit as suggested by Ari during the GP Amsterdam. I started testing with a build with 7 chant effects, the problem with this suit is that you are stone cold against BUG his Hymns. Therefore some duress effects are required to still have a game against BUG. I really loved it all day and only didn't make day 2 due my own playmistake. The duress effects give you a good fighring chance against their Hymns and thoughtseize realy helps against those hate bears and cliques. IMHO you want to have that mix in your disruption suit.
Regarding PiF:
I am still unsure if ANT needs it. I know the build that went top 8 had it, but I realy love the chants and a 4 color manabase is not an option in my view.
A Duress and a Chant is much better than two Chants when fighting counters. Lets you protect your Chant as opposed to having to just jam in two, potentially over 2 turns. Also would still rather have Duress against Merfolk.
Also, as for EtW, I have 1 Volc in the board too.
The reason I envy Doomsday-Tendrils is because they can play Chants and still be at the optimum speed. Chant in ANT is alright against slower opponents but against Aggro with Mindbreak Trap (for example), you'll need 6 mana to safely go off if all you have are Chants. Ad Nauseam is very much life dependent (Doomsday not much). I usually find my life total already dwindled before I have access to 3BBW. Against Daze or Spell Pierce (+something else), that'll be 4BBW or 5BBW before you can declare yourself a winner. If you use Chant to try and bait a counter (just so you can go off next turn) and opponent doesn't bite it, you're dead.
Hey folks while I know people are still having a boner over Past in Flames, is anyone trying any lists with 7 chant effects?
It seems really good in the current meta with all the Stifles and Flusterstorms.
And also basics and such for the Wastelands and other nonsense.
Comments, questions, rebuttal, editorial reply?
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I'm thinking a basic Plains is going to be necessary moving forward. Too much Daze/Waste bullshit still to rely on duals.
FWIW, I played the deck in KC at the SCG Open. Went 2-2 drop, losing to miserable draws against Goblins and Tempo Thresh. I'm a pretty big fan of the EtW plan so far, but it needs a bit of work. Would definitely be much better with Rite of Flame to just make getting to 4 real easy, but I don't think you can make a Waste proof mana base with Chant and Rite. BTW, Chant was unreal.
Current list is:
2 Chant
1 Silence
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal
4 Dark
4 LED
4 Petal
4 IT
2 Grim
1 Ad Naus
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Sea
1 Tundra
2 Marsh Flats
4 Delta
4 Strand
Sideboard:
1 Volc
4 EtW
1 Ad Naus
3 Chain
2 Rebuild
1 Seize
1 Silence
1 Duress
1 Badlands
I kinda want to fit another Seize in the board to back up EtW (don't want Chant when I'm EtWing, just need to point target specific counters depending on my hand, not stop all of them). Might just cut the sideboard AdN as you no longer have to necessarily cut IGG against Reanimator with Chant.
Why is the re-rise of Spell Snare and Stifle suggest that Chant is better?
It seems like there are a ton of Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms out there. The soft counters all make Duress better because you need more mana in the combo turn.
On another vein, if you are UBr, what is the correct number of Past in Flames and Tendrils of Agony. I am becoming increasingly convinced it is not 1/1.
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