Control decks are not a bad matchup, unless they're Counterbalance-based and can get the engine running before you stick a Vial :)
Seriously, in Nashville I lost to Todd playing BUG because I wasn't really awake yet and because I'd been expecting him to be on NO RUG. Otherwise... well, the following round I basically obliterated a Stoneblade opponent.
If you're running the Vial build, obviously that's your strongest card against them, but really the whole deck's good. You're putting them in a Zoo-ish sort of dilemma where they don't have enough counterspells and removal to deal with everything you cast, and your creatures do much more disruptive things to their game plan. Zoo doesn't Revoker their Jaces and Mystics, or run Mom to protect from spot removal and keep those bears hating. Plus, Jace dies to Vindicate, just like practically every other permanent in the game.
And, honestly, the control decks just aren't running enough board sweeps nowadays to make a dent; even as little "discard" as Sculler can get there.
Hey all
I recently picked up three sweet altered Bitterblossoms and I thought of Deadguy Ale as a deck that I've always wanted to play. I'm reading through most of this thread (still on Page 123) but I just wanted to put this list up for your critiquing:
Lands (22)
4x Swamp
4x Scrubland
2x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
2x Arid Mesa
2x Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (12): - Is this too little?
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
Planeswalkers (3):
2x Liliana of the Veil - Don't see why this doesn't fit in Deadguy Ale, she provides both removal and discard
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Late game card, shores up Zoo matchup
Enchantments (3):
3x Bitterblossom - I really want these in the deck
Artifacts (3):
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Body and Mind
Discard (10):
2x Cabal Therapy - Goes well with Bitterblossoms
4x Inquisition of Kozilek - No Thoughtseize due to 1) Budget reasons and 2) Better against Zoo which we struggle against
4x Hymn to Tourach - Is this outdated? However, my meta is quite blue
Removal (7):
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
Sideboard:
3x Perish (Zoo, GW Maverick)
1x Sword of Fire/Ice (Tribal)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Planar Void
1x Warmth (Burn)
2x Engineered Plague (Tribal)
1x Cursed Totem (DnT)
1x Serenity (Enchantress)
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm)
I understand that this deck's weaker matchups are Zoo and G/W Maverick. Are the Perishes enough to shore up this matchup?
Furthermore, I have seen the move towards Vial lists with hatebears - is that a better direction than the more controllish style of my deck?
2 BW decks in the top 16 scg Kansas city, 1 vial version 1 Mox version.'
The deck is fine against Maverick. Reason zoo is bad mu is cos of their reach and loads of removal all the reach gives.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I just switched from Bitterblossom to Elspeth in my build. It's much better, especially after the banning of Misstep. I'd go -3 BB, +2 Elspeth. I'd also go -2 Liliana. Her removal effect is so-so, and her first ability is only good when you have some way to break the symmetry of the effect (like in Pox, where she seems like she'd be amazing).Originally Posted by yutang
Without Vial, I'm not huge on Tidehollow Sculler. He's neat, but honestly I think Mother of Runes and/or Phyrexian Revoker is far better (again, in a Vial-less build; he's probably better than Revoker in a Vial build).
I've also recently lost the third Stoneforge target and put it in the SB. I have yet to come up against a situation where I regret it. For your build, I'd much rather topdeck a fourth Vindicate than the third sword in the Stoneforge package, and the situations where you're running for a situational sword like SoF&I or SoB&M first or even second, or are putting down a third Stoneforge Mystic, just don't come up that often.
Hymn is definitely not outdated. It's still probably the best 2-for-1 in Legacy. Auto 4-of in Deadguy.
Perish is amazing and is a definite 3+ in the Sideboard. It, along with Engineered Plague, really helps against Zoo (so does Mother of Runes). However, I disagree that Maverick is a bad matchup. It's about 50/50. But, like you, I do't run the Vial build, and prefer the controllish side of Deadguy. It works very well against midrange decks like Maverick.
Ill show you my list, which Ive won 3 locals in a row
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamps
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 SoBaM
1 SoLaS
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard is something like:
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Im pretty confident about EVERY choice in this deck.
Things you might NOT like:
4 Equips: I really like having enough equipments in long battles of attrition vs Maverick, Stoneblade and stuff. You do tutor up the right one via SFM and find any via the library - which is better than it sounds.
Vampire NIghthawk: He has been such a powerhouse - 4 lifeswing is good - even in Legacy. Hes the best blocker - even better than tarmogoyf
Jotun Grunt: Mainboard dredgehate + its recycling your stuff in your graveyard
3 Tops: Some would say 2 are enough, some would say we dont need them. I can just tell you its pretty impossible for me to play without them + without Vial/Mox. Id suggest 2-3
Greetings
@Phillipp802
Solid classic Deadguy list! Here is how I suggest you should improve it:
Jotun Grunt isn't a very good card by itself and fades away really fast. I suggest you try a couple of Tombstalkers instead. Since you play 3 Tops, there are no reasons to be afraid of him. Besides, with 4 VNH, Batterskull, SoLS, and Jitte, you have a lot of life gain to make up for any of the life loss already in your deck.
Speaking of swords, SoFI is much better than SoBM. I value pro red over green when all your creatures are within Bolt/Grim range. Pro white is superior to green any day of the week so I don't see the need to fetch SoBM over SoLS. Green only really offers relevant protection against Goyf and Terravore while white offers protection from StP, PtE, Crusader, and Vindicate. Not to mention that I wouldn't want to connect with a SoBM against a Terravore and that SoLS also offers protection from common black removal. In short, SoLS > SoBM vs. Aggro and SoFI > SoBM vs. Control and Small Aggro (Merfolk, Mav, Goblins, Deadguy, etc...)
Also, don't you get mana/color screwed often with only 20 lands? With 4 Wastelands I would lean towards 21-22 lands.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Jotun Grunt fades, but it has application against just about every deck in the established/tier 1-1.5 metagame. Dredge guys, Life from the Loam, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Grim Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage, Tombstalker. Versus Tribal it often persuades them not to swing for the turn it comes into play, and then clocks in for 4 or eats a chump.
2x seems like an alright count. You don't always want to see multiples and it's better in the midgame than turn 2.
I don't think it can be counted on as a 'go the distance' win condition like SFM -> Batterskull or Tarmogoyf or w/e, but it's a solid piece of tech that is generally disruptive for a few turns. Sometimes it gets some damage through, sometimes serves as an abyss-esque effect against swarm agro, or eats a removal spell. For a 2 mana investment I'm generally pretty pleased with it's output.
Because nobody plays Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf isn't really a threat anyway... I think that unless your meta is full of RUG decks SoBM is indeed better than SoFI. Anything with a sword on it is already out of Lavamancer range, so you can't use that argument, and if it has >1 toughness it's out of bolt range too. I'm also far more concerned with staying alive against green fatties than I am with black removal in general. SoBM lets you swing past an army of Goyfs/KotR/Clique/Merfolk/Elves and gives you a blocker to replace the tapped guy. SoLS requires you to have a dude in your yard and mana open to cast him again, and nothing better to do with that mana. Obviously SoFI is better against Goblins but that's one 2%of the field on any given day versus 80%
Sword of Fire and Ice serves a different function than the other 3 playable Swords imo. SoF&I is played first for it's triggers and the protections are the tacked on bonus, where the other swords are played more for their protections with their triggers being a tacked on bonus.
I think Stoneforge packages really want a go-to for the Jace-based control and slower/disrupted combo match ups. Sword of Fire and Ice provides the reliably fastest clock while drawing into more fuel to stay ahead. It splash buffing the Merfolk and Goblins match ups isn't too bad either.
Obviously Jitte is auto include.
I think cases can be made for SoB&M, SoF&F, SoL&S and Batterskull depending on one's list and expected meta.
SoB&M and Batterskull help in lists with less creatures, since they each provide more. And I would agree with Tim the Enchanter that versus Knight of the Reliquary SoB&M is probably the strongest. If your list doesn't have much evasion this sword is appealing because it makes one's bears able to get in for 4 through walls of Goyfs and Folk.
SoF&F is good against BUG getting around their removal and dodging Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. It plays well with more creature heavy lists, since you can swing through, untap and reequip to a blocker, and if one's deck has land tricks (Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port) or a higher curve it's aides some to that too.
SoL&S is good against Zoo putting all your guys out of Bolt range and pro-PTE, being able to get guys back from the 'yard can be good for attrition battles, probably more so than most of the other triggers. I think the pro-White is the big sell point here.
Most Stoneforge Mystic lists I run tend to have Mother of Runes, so Swords To Plowshares/Path To Exile are already mitigated to some degree and SoL&S makes my equipment wearer unable to gain Mom protections. For these reasons I tend to not be too fond of the sword, if one didn't run Mother of Runes I could see their pov being understandably different.
If you really wants a sword against zoo the sword of war and peace is alot stronger then solas. Pretty much only need 1 guy with that sword equiped to go in to unlosable mode.
TBH the creatures I fear the most atm is KotR and Thrun. Thought if you dont have any mavericks in your meta this might not be a problem.
I use only sobam as my sword equipment. SOBAM is the only sword that increases your board position without any more mana useage and makes you able to attack and still have creatures back to block. 5 Connections at most is needed, anymore and their deck is gone already.
Only reason atm I would consider SOFaI would be if goblins and merfolk where everywhere or if playing with Serra Avengers.
As of right now I use a couple of maindecked Relic of Progenitus. For the simple reasons to counter Megaman (snapcaster), dredge, reanimate and to blow out kotr and tarmogoyfs.
I definitely agree that choice of Swords becomes a meta call. Jitte should be an auto-include. Batterskull I'm not a HUGE fan of in this deck, mostly because of its high cost.
What are everyone's thoughts on running a playset of Chrome Mox in this deck? A turn 1 Bob, SFM, Hymn, Tidehollow, or Sinkhole all seem pretty devastating!
Ten, maybe 15 Pages back in this thread are all pros and cons for chrome mox listed.
I played 3 a period but dropped them cos they are dead cards later and often you don't want to play a 2drop turn one, but play discard, so you won't get the full value. Plus its CDA
Was gonna try out some new cards today... but I lost first matchup against tempotresh after 2x mul 1 fetch hands vs stifle decks, bad start. And draw the sucky neccesary evil singleton Plain. Was expecting alot more snapcaster and maverick but instead I get paired with combo elves, bant-blade/GSZ deck and countertop-stoneblade deck. 3 Hours before tournament I removed my Ethersworn Canonists from my board wich sucked they would be great against that elf deck :P
Cards I was planning to try out more further was Maindecked Bitterblossom Mortarpod, Blade Splicer without moxes / Vials. But didnt really get to test much of it sadly.
Mortarpod kills:
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster
Bob
Noble
Mom
Delver
Hoses Dredge
with more!
Theory behind Blade Splicer. With snapcaster in the format before board UWx decks got 4 swords and 4 snapcaster and after board they have up to 4 extra paths. Or the tempo decks got 4 bolts and 4 snap before board. This imo makes it pretty much impossible to play with Mirran Crusader without mother of runes and Counters. As well as 1WW mana cost is bad with Stifle waste of tempotresh is back. Blade Splicer is a solid 2 for 1 board presence when every body can carry a sword or jitte to victory. As well as it can be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy and still have a 3/3 creature left. The golem is large enought to trade with nimble mongooses or even win against it when the splicer is in play. Splicer theory is about the same as Joe Bernal's bw deck where he had 3 Spectral Processions. Thought that card having 6cc is to harsh drawback with bob imo. Much props to him for sticking to the archtype and develope it in a scg blue metagame.
Lessons learned from today:
*Relearn to play against naked Counterbalance :(
Played Bitterblossom against a naked Counterbalance while having a Gatekeeper in hand I could play the same turn to check if there was a 2cc ontop. lololol shot myself the foot. Im blaming the lack of sleep "cough" or something :P
*Add 1 more land to the deck, just not fetchlands. Probly a Ghostquarters RUG mana is very greedy. If not just an other Swamp.
*Hymn to Tourach can still steal games from nowhere!
*Anti-graveyard cards in Relic and Surgical Extractions are really strong atm, Specially against thoes pesky rug decks.
Last edited by Rizso; 11-11-2011 at 01:38 PM.
I run this list in a small tournament, 4 round swiss:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Inqusition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the veil
2 Elspeth, knight errant
4 scrubland
1 Godhollow shrine
2 plains
2 swamp
3 wasteland
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
2 arid mesa
Had a sideboard with enlightened tutor toolbox.
I had not anticipated any burn decks, of course I ran in to two of them. Lost both (2-0, 2-1). Lost vs u/w snapcaster/stoneforge (2-1). Got a bye so no last game.
Overall I missed the last hymn against RDW and a warmth in sideboard... When I opposed the UW player I knew I needed to land a Bitterblossom to win. Got there with the tutorpackage secondgame when tutoring into the bitterblossom and slaming it turn two when he had only plains in play. Third game I managed to get it into play quite early about turn 4 but it wasnt enough. He just beat me down with a batterskull and SoFaF when my Vindicate had gone bad to a FoW.
Changes I will probably make is +1 hymn -1 Liliana. She was worthless in these games, but is great in other games. Hymn is better overall...
Looking forward to GP Indy in march, i'm trying to evolve my deck for the current meta. Try'd to make it aggresive enough to deal with RUG, but still be able to beat the combo/control decks...Been lulling over the Vial version or mox/bitterblossom version...I went with vial and here is the deck i'm starting to test...
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes
1 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
Last edited by conley1000000; 11-22-2011 at 10:08 PM.
I would say 18 creatures are to low for a Vial version. Phyrexian Revoker and Tidehollow are both strong in the vial versions.
Myself im considering exploring more of the token rout like Joe Bernal's list or a more planeswalker based version with couple of more lands.
I had Revoker and sculler in my old list, but with all the bolts running around its hard to keep your beater alive with mom, and keep one of those two alive. Versions I've run before have only had at most 21 creatures.
This is why you play the token list :P You get a lot of creatures at a low cost that says "do u have sweeper?" when u play it..
What do you guys think about Kor Skyfisher It allows for some bouncing, turn 3 acceleration, a flyer, and some tidehollow sculler shenanigans like what Death and Taxes does with Flickerwisp. Resets Jotun Grunts counters, and reuses stoneforge if needed. Theoretically you can bounce your lands if they try to wasteland them via vial.
yeah, thats the other version i was thinking of. I like that version too, but just not sure of the build. I didnt like Bernals last list with spectral procession, but i like the idea. I just dont like the negative sides of it with the mox version with losing a card, and the life loss with bob, and bitterblossom. I do like the mox versions ability to t2 3 drops, which Aven mindcensor is onet that i'd like to try. Great tempo
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