[Deck] Zoo

[Einherjer]

Hows this deck positioned in the new Metagame? Any experiences yet?
Is it fast enough?

[BantFTW]

I think that just for now zoo isn't a really good option.
Against control without sfm (if it can come online)
or NOPRO you have a good matchup.
Against combo, you just loose.
And maverick isn't a really good matchup either because
they can give protection or they've got to many big creatures.

[dsck]

Snapcaster is a beating against Zoo, plus all the combo you are bound to lose G1. G2 you'd have to waste a lot of SB slots and you still most likely lose. However if you get lucky with matchups or your meta is full of Merfolk Zoo just might be good.

@BantFTW, NO PRO decks arent good matchups IMO.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Hows this deck positioned in the new Metagame? Any experiences yet?
Is it fast enough?

With Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl and a variety of cheap efficient burn it seems fast enough just overpowered at the moment.

In relation to the present combo match up, with Hive Mind and Sneak Show kind of losing popularity and Storm, ANT and Belcher all making top 16 appearances at recent SCG open series events since the banning of Mental Misstep, Mindbreak Trap looks like a decent combo answer for Zoo again along with a number of Teeg and/ or Canonist.

[Vandalize]

Cat Sligh/Goyf Sligh is the way to go. The metagame got much faster after the banning of Mental Misstep, and Zoo is still a good candidate to race a lot of decks because of it's consistency and explosiveness. Natacl, Goyf, Goblin Guide and Price of Progress are needed now more than ever.

[Goin Aggro]

We were evicted from DTB? Gah. That's crap. Especially because it was using the NO RUG and Blade Control numbers that don't even work now given Misstep's Banning.

[angel882]

Hi, went 4-0 in a local tournament. Played against GW Maverick (2-0), False Cure (2-1), Rg Goblin (2-0) and The Gate (2-1). Played with this list

1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah

2 Loam Lion
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx

2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast

SB:
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

I was going to play 4 Mindbreak Trap in my sb but when I got to the tournament I noticed that there were only one combo player so I replaced them with (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroblast, Jitte, Library).
The deck was great, I just kept drawing threats all the time. And because the meta was aggro heavy Volcanic Fallout was the MVP of that day.
First round the Maverick player was totally surprised when I removed three of his creatures TWICE!! Six creatures for two cards -> not bad
Volcanic Fallout did also well against Goblins. The player went mountain, Lackey, go. Turn 2 he drops SGC and I just sweep.
I think I will try Volcanic Fallout in the future because there are lot of creatures defence two or less and my own creatures can handle the two damages.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Volcanic Fallout superior to say Pyroclasm? I'm just curious how many times the 3 mana was a detriment to you advancing your own game, allowing you to follow up with Grim/Lynx/Nacatl/Lion after wiping.

[DragoFireheart]

Why isn't Zoo a DTB anymore? I read the stats and even though it didn't make the cut off, it's seeing quite a bit less play regardless. Why is that?

[Curby]

DTB updates are periodic, meaning they happen on schedule and not according to meta shifts and banning changes. If you like Zoo, continue winning with it at large events, and it'll go back into DTB the next time. (I'm not a mod and am not trying to mod. That's just my perspective.)

That said, people are anticipating the rise of combo now that Misstep is banned, and combo's a tough matchup for Zoo. We'll have to see how the meta shakes out.

[from Cairo]

Is Volcanic Fallout superior to say Pyroclasm? I'm just curious how many times the 3 mana was a detriment to you advancing your own game, allowing you to follow up with Grim/Lynx/Nacatl/Lion after wiping.

Being uncounterable is pretty gigantic against Merfolk and the TA/Tempo Thresh lists running some combination of Spellcaster, Delver, Bob or Grim. Hitting 3 can be annoying, but with Daze and Cursecatcher or Spell Snare, Pyroclasm is no better really.

Being an instant is often better against Goblins too since it's not uncommon if a Haste enabler is on board that they will extend more guys to the board pre-Combat.

[angel882]

Being uncounterable is pretty gigantic against Merfolk and the TA/Tempo Thresh lists running some combination of Spellcaster, Delver, Bob or Grim. Hitting 3 can be annoying, but with Daze and Cursecatcher or Spell Snare, Pyroclasm is no better really.

Being an instant is often better against Goblins too since it's not uncommon if a Haste enabler is on board that they will extend more guys to the board pre-Combat.

In my tournament I didn't play against blue based decks, but usually that it's uncounterable is very important. Also the instant speed is so sweet.
For example against Maverick player I attack with my Nacatl and opponent blocks it with Mother of Runes. Mother protect itself against green and before any damage you sweep the taple with Volcanic Fallout leaving your Nacatl standing alone
But if you play Pyroclasm you have to play it
1) before combat when they can save their Mother of Runes
2) after combat when your own Nacatl will also die (Mother blocks it)

I know that the double red is tricky, when people are playing so much wasteland, but I think it's not a problem. Benefits are greater than cons.

[metamet]

Mark Hinsz took top 16 this past weekend's SCG Open with Big Zoo. Here's his event report: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011...rd-t16-legacy/

Liked this logic: "Pridemage beats Stoneforge, Ooze beats Snapcaster, Lavamancer beats Delver of Secrets."

What're everyone's thoughts? Seems he was unsatisfied with Knight in the end, though.

[from Cairo]

This was a good read. I think he touched on some important observations in his "ZOOVERVIEW" at the end. It's a tough metagame to be playing agro without a means of card advantage right now, because control and agro control have such good forms available to them: Stoneforge, Snapcaster, and JaceTMS. He mentioned overextending into Engineered Explosives and Wrath of God out of their board as well.

Diversity of one's curve helps, so I can see the logic in avoiding the Cat Sligh approach. And running more burn helps against the 12x exile effects, though Price of Progress seems spotty when the control decks can afford to run mostly basics.

Personally I think more disruptive agro is better right now than the linear approach that Zoo tends to take. Decks like Goblins and Junk/Rock have the ability to better gain card advantage, while disrupting development either through discard or attacking mana.

If going with Zoo I think the line you highlighted about having answers to the major control elements is big - Qasali Pridemage, Grim Lavamancer and Scavenging Ooze are at least somewhat better suited to disrupt modern control than conventional Tarmogoyfs and Apes.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree, it was a good read.

I may be crazy (feel free to say yes), but I think Sulfuric Vortex would have been abeating against anything running Jaces. If Jace is their only significant threat on the board, Vortex can keep the clock running regardless of fatesealing your top deck or unsummoning your creatures. Vortex has a significantly faster clock attached to it than Jace as well (at least I would think so...)

I have played a limited amount of legacy zoo on MWS, and it seems that if Sylvan Library gets by counterspells, it usually lasts the rest of the game. Enchantment removal against zoo is somewhat counter-intuitive. I think that the fact that Vortex is an enchantment that avoids a good deal of zoo-hate, and also costs 3 mana to avoid Spell Snare's prevalence, is significant. He could have played Swords instead of Path to Exile alongside Vortex...meaning his Wastelands could have gone a lot further.

[Richard Cheese]

I agree, it was a good read.

I may be crazy (feel free to say yes), but I think Sulfuric Vortex would have been abeating against anything running Jaces. If Jace is their only significant threat on the board, Vortex can keep the clock running regardless of fatesealing your top deck or unsummoning your creatures. Vortex has a significantly faster clock attached to it than Jace as well (at least I would think so...)

I have played a limited amount of legacy zoo on MWS, and it seems that if Sylvan Library gets by counterspells, it usually lasts the rest of the game. Enchantment removal against zoo is somewhat counter-intuitive. I think that the fact that Vortex is an enchantment that avoids a good deal of zoo-hate, and also costs 3 mana to avoid Spell Snare's prevalence, is significant. He could have played Swords instead of Path to Exile alongside Vortex...meaning his Wastelands could have gone a lot further.

The problem with Vortex is the casting cost, cmc3 and double-red could be a real pain in the ass. I'd probably go with Punishing Fire/Groves instead. Not the same thing in terms of clock, but actually deals with Jace, and hits creatures which can be huge. Especially in a Big Zoo list where you're running Knights and (preferably) Swords over Path.

If Snapcaster is really giving every blue list 12 Swords effects, then it's probably worth stealing the GSZ package from Maverick to have access to that singleton Thrun. After seeing Maverick + P.Fires lists at the GP, it seems like a natural progression for the two decks to start seeing more overlap.

[Ziveeman]

Glad to see that Big Zoo is doing well again. With the rise of Snapcaster and lack of combo (Reanimator seems to be the only one doing well lately, and Ooze solves that problem), Big Zoo just beats up on these kind of tempo decks.

If he was unhappy with Knight of the Reliquary, perhaps Stoneforge Mystic should be given a second look. I could see cutting down to 2 Knights and trying to fit a Stoneforge package in there, which just makes the deck so much more versatile in terms of threats. Plus Sword of Body and Mind + Scavenging Ooze is just nasty.

[Koby]

If he was unhappy with Knight of the Reliquary, perhaps Stoneforge Mystic should be given a second look. I could see cutting down to 2 Knights and trying to fit a Stoneforge package in there, which just makes the deck so much more versatile in terms of threats. Plus Sword of Body and Mind + Scavenging Ooze is just nasty.

Against Snapcaster and Tempo decks, SFM is worse. KotR is at least large enough and self-sufficient to force being the Aggro player. SFM can both get Snare'd and Stifle'd. I would rather advise to add or consider Scavenging Ooze. This at least provides a method to disrupt the SCM plan, and help out in other key matchups (opposing KotR, Dredge, and Reanimator).

[Red Army]

The problem with Vortex is the casting cost, cmc3 and double-red could be a real pain in the ass. I'd probably go with Punishing Fire/Groves instead. Not the same thing in terms of clock, but actually deals with Jace, and hits creatures which can be huge. Especially in a Big Zoo list where you're running Knights and (preferably) Swords over Path.

If Snapcaster is really giving every blue list 12 Swords effects, then it's probably worth stealing the GSZ package from Maverick to have access to that singleton Thrun. After seeing Maverick + P.Fires lists at the GP, it seems like a natural progression for the two decks to start seeing more overlap.

Was that Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire comment sarcasm? I've thought about the possibility of the combo being shoved in Zoo, and the combo would work, but in games when you only draw the Grove you slow your clock down like crazy. Zoo would rather 'hand-their-opponent-a-mox' with Path to Exile than play Swords to Plowshares.

Regardless of whether it would work out or not, it is kind of over-preparing for control and small aggro, match ups Zoo is supposed to be good against on it's one. You don't need to play control with Punishing Fire if the deck is supposed to be the archetypical aggro deck in the format.


Sulfuric Vortex is also overpreparing for MUs that Zoo is supposed to be good against, only it's much worse because it is non-interactive, for kind of the same reasons Fireblast is bad, only it doesn't help out against combo. I could be completely wrong, I just don't see it being very good that often (ever since I got it in my Scourge Goblin precon, I wanted it to be good for me, but it never was). If you want to be a Burn deck post board, well I guess you can try and no one can stop you.

EDIT - My opinions of Fireblast are biased for somewhat obvious reasons and I have a strange way of comparing cards...nontheless, interactivity with Fireblast comes at such a huge cost...but can be good with KotR in play...k..

[Richard Cheese]

Was that Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire comment sarcasm? I've thought about the possibility of the combo being shoved in Zoo, and the combo would work, but in games when you only draw the Grove you slow your clock down like crazy. Zoo would rather 'hand-their-opponent-a-mox' with Path to Exile than play Swords to Plowshares.

Regardless of whether it would work out or not, it is kind of over-preparing for control and small aggro, match ups Zoo is supposed to be good against on it's one. You don't need to play control with Punishing Fire if the deck is supposed to be the archetypical aggro deck in the format.


Sulfuric Vortex is also overpreparing for MUs that Zoo is supposed to be good against, only it's much worse because it is non-interactive, for kind of the same reasons Fireblast is bad, only it doesn't help out against combo. I could be completely wrong, I just don't see it being very good that often (ever since I got it in my Scourge Goblin precon, I wanted it to be good for me, but it never was). If you want to be a Burn deck post board, well I guess you can try and no one can stop you.

EDIT - My opinions of Fireblast are biased for somewhat obvious reasons and I have a strange way of comparing cards...nontheless, interactivity with Fireblast comes at such a huge cost...but can be good with KotR in play...k..

I think you're confusing Big Zoo, which is what I'm talking about, and cat sligh/1-drop/Little Zoo. Big Zoo is decidedly a mid-range deck, and in mid-range, with Knights to fetch up Groves, I think Fires fits pretty nicely. The life-gaining seems counter-intuitive, but you aren't trying to drop 3-4 small dudes early then finish them off with burn by turn 4 in Big Zoo. Also remember that you can tap Grove for colorless without the life gain, so it's not like it's just a completely dead card without Fire. If you're running GSZ, it's even less of a drawback. How many of each is probably up for debate, but a friend of mine went 11-4 at GP Providence with Big Zoo + P.Fire + GSZ, good enough for top 64. Don't knock it until you try it I guess.