Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[Richard Cheese]

Can we at least change the title to something a little less apocalyptic?

Also my .02 (since everyone totally gives a shit):
If Brainstorm were banned, it would be a shame, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, and Legacy would still be head and shoulders above every other format in terms of deck/meta diversity.

[CorpT]

Can we at least change the title to something a little less apocalyptic?

Also my .02 (since everyone totally gives a shit):
If Brainstorm were banned, it would be a shame, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, and Legacy would still be head and shoulders above every other format in terms of deck/meta diversity.

SCG:Vegas
Legacy:
4x RUG Tempo
1x Elves
1x Reanimator
1x Aggro Loam
1x Burn
2x Merfolk
1x Zoo
3x Bant Blade
1x GW Blade
1x Esper Blade

Standard:
1x UB Control
1x UR Aggro
2x Bant Pod
1x Wolf Ramp
2x UW Blade
2x UW Aggro
4x GW Tokens
2x UW Illusion Aggro
1x Heartless UB

In Legacy, I see 2 styles that are over-represented: RUG Tempo and Blade decks comprising 9/16 slots.

In Standard, I see 4x GW Tokens as the most prominent deck, but nothing else.

IMO, Standard, right now, is just as, if not more diverse than Legacy. Just because there are different names for a lot of the decks doesn't mean they don't share a large % of the same cards. If anything, Brainstorm is stifling the diversity by requiring blue to be run in almost all of the decks that do well. This Standard format has no such restriction and changes week to week which color is dominant. Some weeks it is green, some it is white, some it is blue, etc... Legacy never has that. Blue is superior to every other color every week.

[Antonius]

Maybe, after they ban brainstorm, I can improve from 5-1 to 6-0 against blue decks at the next SCG.

I could seriously use the help. Jesus, those blue decks are OP!!!111!111111!!!!

[Solaran_X]

Honestly, I think they should ban Brainstorm so I don't need to track down 3 more Japanese Foil MM Brainstorms. Not sure what is worse about them...difficulty finding them...or how much they cost when you do.

[Anarky87]

Maybe, after they ban brainstorm, I can improve from 5-1 to 6-0 against blue decks at the next SCG.

I could seriously use the help. Jesus, those blue decks are OP!!!111!111111!!!!

I agree with this. When I played Aggro Loam at Gencon, the only times I lost to a blue deck was when they dropped a turn 3 10/10 Pro Everything and when after my initial seven I drew about 8 lands in a row and my only Goyf got StP'd.

Other than that, I pretty much prayed to get paired against blue decks, because there was a slim to none chance of them winning outside of Natural > Retard mode or my own deck pooping on me. Maybe people need to try some other decks out. Maverick seems to do really well against the Tempo decks as does Aggro Loam. Instead of the Good Card > Everyone Panic > BANHAMMER model, we should just let players metagame properly. Brainstorm is a great card and it does its job extremely well in fixing draws. Do I think it needs banned over other things that probably need looked at? Not at all.

[SpikeyMikey]

Since there's no good reason for Merfolk to not play Brainstorm, I think that argument kind of sucked in the first place.

There's an excellent reason for Merfolk not to play Brainstorm. It's worse EV than every other card in their deck.

I don't think banning Brainstorm would by any means kill blue in this format. Honestly, for all people's talk of Brainstorm as a "skill" card, what it really is is a "lazy man's card". People keep bad hands and rely on Brainstorm to draw into good cards. They waste removal or counters and expect Brainstorm to dig later on to save them from these bad decisions. So if it got the ban-hammer, most blue players would get significantly worse, but it wouldn't change what happens at the top by much.

However, you need to be really careful in how far you go towards nerfing blue. The constant rants about "blue dominance" worry me. I can build a deck that does well against various tempo and aggro control strategies in blue without using blue. What I cannot do without blue is build a deck that will beat the masses of combo that will rise in a meta without enough blue to keep it in check. And while some people (*cough* Dr. Jones *cough*) will say that decks without counters can be built to do well against combo, the ability for counterless decks to compete with combo is a function of Force of Will's presence forcing combo players to build resiliency into their decks. Otherwise, it'd be SI mirrors and every non-combo list would have to start with 4xLeyline of Sanctity.

In a word, be careful what you wish for, people. Modern has shown what happens to a format when you combine a large cardpool with weak control elements. Without a field that's at least 40% (approximately) blue, Legacy would be a hellish format with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Killing blue doesn't make your bigpileoshit.dec any better. It just means you lose to something different.

[catmint]

However, you need to be really careful in how far you go towards nerfing blue. The constant rants about "blue dominance" worry me. I can build a deck that does well against various tempo and aggro control strategies in blue without using blue. What I cannot do without blue is build a deck that will beat the masses of combo that will rise in a meta without enough blue to keep it in check. And while some people (*cough* Dr. Jones *cough*) will say that decks without counters can be built to do well against combo, the ability for counterless decks to compete with combo is a function of Force of Will's presence forcing combo players to build resiliency into their decks. Otherwise, it'd be SI mirrors and every non-combo list would have to start with 4xLeyline of Sanctity.

In a word, be careful what you wish for, people. Modern has shown what happens to a format when you combine a large cardpool with weak control elements. Without a field that's at least 40% (approximately) blue, Legacy would be a hellish format with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Killing blue doesn't make your bigpileoshit.dec any better. It just means you lose to something different.

very wise words... and that is also the reason why they will be smart enough not to ban brainstorm (at least that's what I am hoping)...

[Mr. Safety]

There's an excellent reason for Merfolk not to play Brainstorm. It's worse EV than every other card in their deck.

I don't think banning Brainstorm would by any means kill blue in this format. Honestly, for all people's talk of Brainstorm as a "skill" card, what it really is is a "lazy man's card". People keep bad hands and rely on Brainstorm to draw into good cards. They waste removal or counters and expect Brainstorm to dig later on to save them from these bad decisions. So if it got the ban-hammer, most blue players would get significantly worse, but it wouldn't change what happens at the top by much.

However, you need to be really careful in how far you go towards nerfing blue. The constant rants about "blue dominance" worry me. I can build a deck that does well against various tempo and aggro control strategies in blue without using blue. What I cannot do without blue is build a deck that will beat the masses of combo that will rise in a meta without enough blue to keep it in check. And while some people (*cough* Dr. Jones *cough*) will say that decks without counters can be built to do well against combo, the ability for counterless decks to compete with combo is a function of Force of Will's presence forcing combo players to build resiliency into their decks. Otherwise, it'd be SI mirrors and every non-combo list would have to start with 4xLeyline of Sanctity.

In a word, be careful what you wish for, people. Modern has shown what happens to a format when you combine a large cardpool with weak control elements. Without a field that's at least 40% (approximately) blue, Legacy would be a hellish format with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Killing blue doesn't make your bigpileoshit.dec any better. It just means you lose to something different.

Word up...

[CorpT]

very wise words... and that is also the reason why they will be smart enough not to ban brainstorm (at least that's what I am hoping)...

Those were wise words, indeed. Legacy has FoW and Daze to help, but that may not be enough. On the other hand, the impending combo winter doom that was threatened with the banning of Misstep never did materialize.

IMO, printing non-Blue answers is probably the better solution. Printing non-blue versions of cards that are on power level with Brainstorm is an option. Printing Delver and Snapcaster was just insulting. Blue should be playable, not nerfed into the ground. But that doesn't mean other colors shouldn't be playable too. Right now, they are support colors for blue.

[SpikeyMikey]

Those were wise words, indeed. Legacy has FoW and Daze to help, but that may not be enough. On the other hand, the impending combo winter doom that was threatened with the banning of Misstep never did materialize.

IMO, printing non-Blue answers is probably the better solution. Printing non-blue versions of cards that are on power level with Brainstorm is an option. Printing Delver and Snapcaster was just insulting. Blue should be playable, not nerfed into the ground. But that doesn't mean other colors shouldn't be playable too. Right now, they are support colors for blue.

No, but we didn't have a combo winter before Misstep was printed either. That was just Chicken Littleism. I think you're right that non-blue Legacy playable cards would be the best solution. Especially in the form of library manipulation. Sylvan Library was a great card. Sensei's Divining Top is even better (and is, as an aside, my vote for best card in the format as it provides greater increased card quality over the course of a medium to long game than any other card in the format). A green or white instant speed filter effect would be great.

Not to nitpick, but do you think that other colors are support for blue or that blue is support for other colors? When I play Bant, the best cards are green and white, but blue gels it all together nicely (and provides me with Rhox War Monk) because of the library manipulation and tempo-counters.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Plucking the top card of the deck into his hand before anyone could stop him…Harrison skipped right past his Summoner's Pact trigger and was issued a death by game state.

This kind of gaff gets you laughed at in your local game store. Here we have the pioneers and "pros" of the format. Are they high? Drunk?

Since Alex Bertoncini does not live in Vegas it is possible he was exhausted from travel and two days of Magic playing. I mean I'm all for people not mindlessly worshiping and/or regurgitating whatever any pro says, but don't make the mistake of thinking he's not a very good player.

[CorpT]

Not to nitpick, but do you think that other colors are support for blue or that blue is support for other colors? When I play Bant, the best cards are green and white, but blue gels it all together nicely (and provides me with Rhox War Monk) because of the library manipulation and tempo-counters.

That's hard to say and I'm sure there is a sliding scale. Maverick + Brainstorm is going to be a lot different than Canadian Thresh. Even if GW is dominant, the Brainstorm seems like it is putting it over the top.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with this. When I played Aggro Loam at Gencon, the only times I lost to a blue deck was when they dropped a turn 3 10/10 Pro Everything and when after my initial seven I drew about 8 lands in a row and my only Goyf got StP'd.

Other than that, I pretty much prayed to get paired against blue decks, because there was a slim to none chance of them winning outside of Natural > Retard mode or my own deck pooping on me. Maybe people need to try some other decks out. Maverick seems to do really well against the Tempo decks as does Aggro Loam. Instead of the Good Card > Everyone Panic > BANHAMMER model, we should just let players metagame properly. Brainstorm is a great card and it does its job extremely well in fixing draws. Do I think it needs banned over other things that probably need looked at? Not at all.

You're looking at people "metagaming properly": playing exact copies of the same list in the finals while we see the same decks over and over again.

See, the reason why people aren't going to metagame outside of making specific tweaks for blue mirrors (outside of obvious netdecking) is this: everyone knows that nonblue decks lose to combo. Everyone knows that blue beats combo. If you're afraid enough of combo you will just play a blue deck and be done with it. As long as enough people believe you can beat everything with blue, blue will dominate because "you can beat everything with it."

See the problem here? Blue decks are obviously not bulletproof, but if you're basing your deck choice decisions off of T8 or T16 evidence, there's little to suggest otherwise. Sure, it could be that 17-whatever is chock-full of blue killers, but that data won't show up for possibly weeks. People check a T16, see infinite blue and a couple of other decks, write off the other decks as flukes/good players with bad decks, and assume that infinite blue made it to the top because blue is the best and they should therefore play blue. Then the next tournament has too many blue decks and not enough blue-predator decks, and the latter don't show up in the T16 in large enough quantities to break the pattern because of bad matchups/bad beats/ average pilots. And so the cycle continues.

Plus, in Legacy, it's enormously expensive to switch decks once you've built something (outside of a narrow range of sister decks or building a "budget" option like Affinity or Dredge). It's possible that people are showing up with only blue decks because that's all they've got.

EDIT: I think that people arguing that the metagame is fine because foils exist and people are just too stupid/sheeple to play them are focusing too much on matchups in a vacuum and not enough on the psychology behind a metagame. If you believe that Snapcaster Mage is insane and Delver of Secrets is a better Wild Nacatl, then you have little reason to play a deck like Zoo. Whether or not beliefs like that are "correct" in an objective sense is irrelevant if they are never tested because, say, the meta is such that Snapcaster actually is insane and Delver actually is a better Nacatl. Put another way: sometimes, if enough people believe something, that will inform their deck choices in such a way as to make the belief "true" regardless of whether or not it is actually true in a perfect metagame.

[Richard Cheese]

SCG:Vegas
Legacy:
4x RUG Tempo
1x Elves
1x Reanimator
1x Aggro Loam
1x Burn
2x Merfolk
1x Zoo
3x Bant Blade
1x GW Blade
1x Esper Blade

Standard:
1x UB Control
1x UR Aggro
2x Bant Pod
1x Wolf Ramp
2x UW Blade
2x UW Aggro
4x GW Tokens
2x UW Illusion Aggro
1x Heartless UB

In Legacy, I see 2 styles that are over-represented: RUG Tempo and Blade decks comprising 9/16 slots.

In Standard, I see 4x GW Tokens as the most prominent deck, but nothing else.

IMO, Standard, right now, is just as, if not more diverse than Legacy. Just because there are different names for a lot of the decks doesn't mean they don't share a large % of the same cards. If anything, Brainstorm is stifling the diversity by requiring blue to be run in almost all of the decks that do well. This Standard format has no such restriction and changes week to week which color is dominant. Some weeks it is green, some it is white, some it is blue, etc... Legacy never has that. Blue is superior to every other color every week.

A couple nitpicks here:

First, that's one event, and just the top 16. Sure you can go back multiple months and show RUG and Stoneblade still dominating in general. You would also see stuff like Elves, Reanimator, TES, Aggro Loam, Junk, Maverick, Burn, Zoo, Deadguy, Dredge, Belcher, Painted Stone, etc. So yes, there are a small handful of DTB in Legacy right now, but the number of viable decks in the current meta is still huge.

Second, Standard just rotated, so isn't it still adapting to the new card pool?

[force_of_phil]

Instead of banning Brainstorm, they could give other colors better card selection and maindeckable ways to interact with combo. I don't know what they could reasonably print that would hold a candle to what blue has, but in the mean time they could stop giving blue new power cards in every set and take a look at making the other parts of the color pie meaningful in eternal formats.

[bakofried]

Quick nitpick; it was a 2/2 split between maverick and bant blade. SCG typed it up wrong.

[Antonius]

you need to know:

Jacob Kory didn't play Bant, he played John Mccain.

[sdematt]

When are you going to post a tournament report, Tony? They're really entertaining.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

Snip

-You're wasting your time. The blue haters will continue to whine about blue because they believe that if they whine enough, things will go their way regardless of whether blue should be nerfed or not.

Look at Modern. Modern is what happens when your control base is too weak. Combo runs rampant. WotC bans combo into the ground. All that's left that is worth playing is Zoo.

If you want a blue-less format, go play Modern. Seriously. I'm tired of all of the bad arguments regarding Brainstorm and how people are comparing it to tutors (Mystical Tutor and SotF). Brainstorm is a good cantrip, but it's not a tutor. It's powerful, but so are many other cards.

I say this so many times but none listen: if you want scissors (aggro) better, you don't nerf paper(control): you nerf rock (combo) so people will be less afraid of playing aggro decks or you buff scissors(aggro) so it doesn't auto-lose to combo decks.

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1G for a 4/5 when I can pay 2U for a 15/15 Annihilator 6 with protection from spells WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays G for a 3/3 when I can pay BB to put a 6/6 into my graveyard that lets me draw 7 cards a turn and makes your hand go away WITH counter backup while I also can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1GW for a 2/2 that can grow big when I can pay 2GG for a 10/10 with protection from everything WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?


Oh wait, I play blue decks so I CAN stop that crap.

Edit: But go ahead. Nerf the "blue" control decks that keep the blue combo decks in check. The above will still find their combo cards just fine with other cantrips, but the control decks will now have a harder time keeping them in check.

[troopatroop]

Hey, mr. way too much bold text? The source called... and it wants you to calm down. You're kinda right, tho! haha O_o


Brainstorm is Skill Intensive, Fun, and Powerful, and it doesn't affect the board. It's not broken, not even card advantage without a shuffle effect. On its own, it's a wonderful magic card, one of the most fun to play, and it's the freaking oil to the vehicle that is Legacy. How dare you contest, that every magic player, young and old, should be able to cast their Brainstorms! Who would ever WANT this garbage? It would take out such an amazing dynamic of the format, one that no other format can boast. Leave us our Brainstorm/Jace/Stonforge Mystic! This is Legacy!