Legacy is doomed. SCG jumping on board the "Ban Brainstorm" wagon. :(

[TsumiBand]

You're looking at people "metagaming properly": playing exact copies of the same list in the finals while we see the same decks over and over again.

See, the reason why people aren't going to metagame outside of making specific tweaks for blue mirrors (outside of obvious netdecking) is this: everyone knows that nonblue decks lose to combo. Everyone knows that blue beats combo. If you're afraid enough of combo you will just play a blue deck and be done with it. As long as enough people believe you can beat everything with blue, blue will dominate because "you can beat everything with it."

See the problem here? Blue decks are obviously not bulletproof, but if you're basing your deck choice decisions off of T8 or T16 evidence, there's little to suggest otherwise. Sure, it could be that 17-whatever is chock-full of blue killers, but that data won't show up for possibly weeks. People check a T16, see infinite blue and a couple of other decks, write off the other decks as flukes/good players with bad decks, and assume that infinite blue made it to the top because blue is the best and they should therefore play blue. Then the next tournament has too many blue decks and not enough blue-predator decks, and the latter don't show up in the T16 in large enough quantities to break the pattern because of bad matchups/bad beats/ average pilots. And so the cycle continues.

Plus, in Legacy, it's enormously expensive to switch decks once you've built something (outside of a narrow range of sister decks or building a "budget" option like Affinity or Dredge). It's possible that people are showing up with only blue decks because that's all they've got.

EDIT: I think that people arguing that the metagame is fine because foils exist and people are just too stupid/sheeple to play them are focusing too much on matchups in a vacuum and not enough on the psychology behind a metagame. If you believe that Snapcaster Mage is insane and Delver of Secrets is a better Wild Nacatl, then you have little reason to play a deck like Zoo. Whether or not beliefs like that are "correct" in an objective sense is irrelevant if they are never tested because, say, the meta is such that Snapcaster actually is insane and Delver actually is a better Nacatl. Put another way: sometimes, if enough people believe something, that will inform their deck choices in such a way as to make the belief "true" regardless of whether or not it is actually true in a perfect metagame.

+1. Doesn't anyone remember how fucking hard they had to pull to make Blue decent in Legacy? Anyone remember that whole 'support color' phase it went through? mmm?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I see a lot of incoherent posts that basically just call anyone who makes an argument for Brainstorm's banning a whiner. It might shock some people to learn that in this Magical card game cards are banned for being too good on occasion.

Also lol somewhat really trotted out the rock-paper-scissors thing again.

[DragoFireheart]

I see a lot of incoherent posts that basically just call anyone who makes an argument for Brainstorm's banning a whiner. It might shock some people to learn that in this Magical card game cards are banned for being too good on occasion.

- If I see a rabbit, I'm going to call it a rabbit. People are essentially whining about brainstorm when they should be whining about the lack of good non-blue combo hate cards or the fact that combo and combo/control decks are pretty powerful without those "unbalanced" control decks.

Also lol somewhat really trotted out the rock-paper-scissors thing again.

lol at you for trying to claim that BS is good in merfolk. That comment you made pretty much kills your credibility. However, lets ignore evidence that modern offers shall we? Lets ignore the fact that a weak control base is only going to encourage more combo decks and more bannings from WotC. Nope, lets completely ignore that and ban cards we "think" are too powerful without first understanding what the actual problem is. Nope, people totally didn't play combo after the death of MMS: people played aggro decks en mass.

Nope, lets ignore all of this.

[trivial_matters]

I swear these discussions repeat about once a month. Nothing sparks a good-natured debate better than talk of banning some card or another. Until recently that was Misstep, Force of Will, before that Tarmogoyf perhaps, now it's Brainstorm.

There are some genuinely good points being made, but it usually doesn't take long for the trolling to start.

/disappears

[damionblackgear]

Perhaps, if people didn't give crap like this so much of an ear, we wouldn't have to deal with all of these banning.

YES, Brainstorm is a good card. I like to refer to it as the Training Wheels for Legacy but, that doesn't mean that it should be banned. It is a filter for your hand. As a late game topdeck, it's worse than Ponder (which at least let's you shuffle if you're boned in the next coming draws).

If you're tired of seeing it, learn to play without it. Don't ban it so people who are new, or can't think, don't have the urge to play without it. Otherwise, what's next on the chopping block? Knight of the Reliquary? Stoneforge Mystic? Dual Lands? Legacy?

So, I'm hoping, although my faith in people has been dwindling for some time, that this will be the last post in this thread. I'm hoping that perhaps the lack of attention will allow Wizards to not look at this as a thread to ban another card because of it. I'm hoping that if this isn't the last post, people will at least post requesting Wizards not ban Brainstorm as the title to their post.

[death]

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and I would respect it if IBA took his stand regarding Brainstorm.

But I'm going to be the fist to call this one out. I think Snapcaster Mage is the culprit, not Brainstorm.. I can't fathom how this card slipped through R&D, it's insultingly good against combo and aggro, hence the blue tempo dominance.

IMO, if you're not playing 4x Snapcaster/Stoneforge or 4x Snapcaster/Tarmogoyf yet, you're doing it wrong.

[Aggro_zombies]

I see a lot of incoherent posts that basically just call anyone who makes an argument for Brainstorm's banning a whiner. It might shock some people to learn that in this Magical card game cards are banned for being too good on occasion.

Also lol somewhat really trotted out the rock-paper-scissors thing again.

I'd don't think Brainstorm is inherently too good. I don't even think Brainstorm is too good with fetchlands. However, if we assume that Brainstorm is a large part of blue's dominance, and that blue will remain dominant for as long as people think blue is unbeatably good (who knows how long with the modern internet echo chamber), then Brainstorm needs to go to keep the format from getting stale.

I don't think banning Brainstorm will actually dent blue all that much in practice, though. I mean, yes, there will be a lot of people who jump ship because "Brainstorm is gone, that must mean blue is shit now," but Ponder and Preordain are fine replacements that aren't that much worse. At least, they're not so much worse as to completely handicap blue. I guess blue gets less attractive when you can't Snapcaster to draw EOT, but...

[Gheizen64]

-You're wasting your time. The blue haters will continue to whine about blue because they believe that if they whine enough, things will go their way regardless of whether blue should be nerfed or not.

Look at Modern. Modern is what happens when your control base is too weak. Combo runs rampant. WotC bans combo into the ground. All that's left that is worth playing is Zoo.

If you want a blue-less format, go play Modern. Seriously. I'm tired of all of the bad arguments regarding Brainstorm and how people are comparing it to tutors (Mystical Tutor and SotF). Brainstorm is a good cantrip, but it's not a tutor. It's powerful, but so are many other cards.

I say this so many times but none listen: if you want scissors (aggro) better, you don't nerf paper(control): you nerf rock (combo) so people will be less afraid of playing aggro decks or you buff scissors(aggro) so it doesn't auto-lose to combo decks.

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1G for a 4/5 when I can pay 2U for a 15/15 Annihilator 6 with protection from spells WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays G for a 3/3 when I can pay BB to put a 6/6 into my graveyard that lets me draw 7 cards a turn and makes your hand go away WITH counter backup while I also can't stop it?

Why would I bother with a deck that pays 1GW for a 2/2 that can grow big when I can pay 2GG for a 10/10 with protection from everything WITH counter backup and I can't stop it?


Oh wait, I play blue decks so I CAN stop that crap.

Edit: But go ahead. Nerf the "blue" control decks that keep the blue combo decks in check. The above will still find their combo cards just fine with other cantrips, but the control decks will now have a harder time keeping them in check.

So much false in this post. Brainstorm being gone would nerf non-storm combo far more than it would control and would nerf storm about as much as control with tempo slightly below that. But please we can go on with this assumption that control is someway saving us from a combo winter like MM was (it wasn't, it made non-blue more playable, had to be banned with snapcaster in the picture for sure), with the "it's only an enabler", and why not the "eternal should be blue" and "everyone that say brainstorm should be banned is a whiner".

I'm out.

[Tammit67]

IMO, if you're not playing 4x Snapcaster/Stoneforge or 4x Snapcaster/Tarmogoyf yet, you're doing it wrong.

Those are good cards right now but....

I'd argue Scavenging ooze is better than all of these. I've been unable to pair up more than just ooze and goyf, but an active ooze sure gives people headaches.

[DragoFireheart]

So much false in this post. Brainstorm being gone would nerf non-storm combo far more than it would control and would nerf storm about as much as control with tempo slightly below that. .

Last time I checked, Ponder and Preordain existed. Those combo decks would be fine.

[xfxf]

Well if Brainstorm started to get targeted as the new ban candidate this much, I fear it'll most probably get banned. I don't think it needs to be banned but I'm almost positive that it will get banned.

Blue hate of the masses and the sympathy of the Wizards for the whiners are unnegligible and unescapable.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Losing Brainstorm only hurts Doomsday. ANT and TES would be totally fine. 4x Ponder 4x Preordain would not enable busted LED tricks but ... they would survive. Hell, I tested a TNT list with 2x Brainstorms a few weeks ago and it worked flawlessly. No reason those can't become Top/Sleight of Hand ... something like that.

While it won't entirely nerf blue control, it will put a damper on it since it really hurts CB strategies and they no longer have instant speed responses outside of ... Impulse or ... something of that nature.

I actually think it would make the format more fun even though Doomsday probably won't survive (although I would try anyway). Banning Brainstorm would make Suicide and Rock variants more powerful and combine: Null Rod, hand destruction, and hate bears ... u have a fighting chance since these decks can no longer protect their hands. I could totally get behind it, it might make the format even more diverse which is the main reason I play legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

While it won't entirely nerf blue control, it will put a damper on it since it really hurts CB strategies and

What are you talking about? CB? It's a niche deck at best and the example you provided isn't really relevant.

[caiomarcos]

So much false in this post. Brainstorm being gone would nerf non-storm combo far more than it would control and would nerf storm about as much as control with tempo slightly below that. But please we can go on with this assumption that control is someway saving us from a combo winter like MM was (it wasn't, it made non-blue more playable, had to be banned with snapcaster in the picture for sure), with the "it's only an enabler", and why not the "eternal should be blue" and "everyone that say brainstorm should be banned is a whiner".

I'm out.

That. Every reason DragoFireHeart gave to not ban Brainstorm (control plays them and control keeps us safe from NO Bant, Show and Tell and Reanimator) is actually the opposite. I believe those three fearsome decks would be heavily nerfed without Brainstorm.

Now, I'm not for banning Brainstorm, but I do think that blue is too much over the edge lately and that's not healthy for the format. At first it seems that Brainstorm is to blame, but maybe it's Snapcaster or a whole bunch of diffetent factors that we can not just fathom right now.

I'd say let the format settle a little more, let it find a resting point and then, if it still as dominated by blue as it is now, something should be done.

[CorpT]

That. Every reason DragoFireHeart gave to not ban Brainstorm (control plays them and control keeps us safe from NO Bant, Show and Tell and Reanimator) is actually the opposite. I believe those three fearsome decks would be heavily nerfed without Brainstorm.

This. Three things I learned from this thread:

1) If you think Brainstorm is too powerful, you're a whiner.
2) If you would quit Magic if Brainstorm were banned, you're not a whiner, you're rational.
3) Just like with Misstep, Brainstorm is the only thing holding back Combo from dominating everything.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- If I see a rabbit, I'm going to call it a rabbit. People are essentially whining about brainstorm when they should be whining about the lack of good non-blue combo hate cards or the fact that combo and combo/control decks are pretty powerful without those "unbalanced" control decks.

There's plenty of non-blue combo hate. Also I don't know why you think Brainstorm is only played in control, have you played this format at all?

lol at you for trying to claim that BS is good in merfolk.

It is good in merfolk. It's good in everything with blue. You actually need compelling reasons not to play Brainstorm in Legacy, and none of them are sufficient if you're not already in blue.

I don't know, maybe you've never played with the card? Maybe you're new to Legacy? Brainstorm is ludicrously good for its casting cost, people comparing it to Preordain or Ponder are missing the point entirely.

However, lets ignore evidence that modern offers shall we? Lets ignore the fact that a weak control base is only going to encourage more combo decks and more bannings from WotC. Nope, lets completely ignore that and ban cards we "think" are too powerful without first understanding what the actual problem is. Nope, people totally didn't play combo after the death of MMS: people played aggro decks en mass.

Nope, lets ignore all of this.

Nothing in this post makes me think you understand anything about how Legacy or even Magic generally works.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

+1. Doesn't anyone remember how fucking hard they had to pull to make Blue decent in Legacy? Anyone remember that whole 'support color' phase it went through? mmm?

I can only hope you're being sarcastic here.

[sligh16]

I don't think banning Brainstorm would by any means kill blue in this format. Honestly, for all people's talk of Brainstorm as a "skill" card, what it really is is a "lazy man's card". People keep bad hands and rely on Brainstorm to draw into good cards. They waste removal or counters and expect Brainstorm to dig later on to save them from these bad decisions. So if it got the ban-hammer, most blue players would get significantly worse, but it wouldn't change what happens at the top by much.

THIS. SO. MUCH. Talking about Brainstorm as a skill intensive card is like talking about how difficult is to swim. Once you know a couple of pointers, you're good to go and have a fool-proof panic button against poor decisions.

If you really like the Brainstorming effect and can't even breathe without knowing you at least have it in your deck, you can always play Jace and brainstorm the whole game if u wish.

Also, the "if they ban brainstorm legacy will die" argument is kinda stupid, how many people quitted legacy because they printed a card that invalidated so many creatures?(protip: It's called Tarmogoyf) Legacy has survived a lot of these "the sky is falling" moments, so it's nothing new.

Really, blame Wizards for printing more and more blue silly cards that keep stretching the distance between Blue and the other colors.

[DragoFireheart]

It is good in merfolk.

Nothing in this post makes me think you understand anything about how Legacy or even Magic generally works.

EDIT:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on

In the time span of 4 years, only 19 Merfolk decks attempted to use Brainstorm. If it was so amazing in Merfolk, why didn't more people use it?

IBA, swallow your pride and admit you are wrong. Get over it.

This. Three things I learned from this thread:

1) If you think Brainstorm is too powerful, you're a whiner.
2) If you would quit Magic if Brainstorm were banned, you're not a whiner, you're rational.
3) Just like with Misstep, Brainstorm is the only thing holding back Combo from dominating everything.

Yep, didn't read my posts. Let me help you out:

1) There is nothing wrong with whining, but whining about the wrong aspects is bad. Brainstorm isn't too powerful, aggro decks are simply not powerful enough compared to the other two pillars. At this point, it's either Zoo, Maverick or something Rogue.

2) I wouldn't quit magic but I'd certainly stop playing Legacy either entirely or to the point that it would be the same as "quitting". Not because of some inane love for Brainstorm but because of the bad precedent it would set. What's next on the chopping block? Force of Will? After seeing what happened to Modern, I'd rather less bannings and more printings of cards to help offset the balance.

3) While brainstorm alone isn't holding back combo decks, losing brainstorm would certainly weaken control decks far more than combo decks. Combo decks want the cantrip effects, but the card quality of Brainstorm is far more important for control decks to help maintain control while also help keeping mana open for counters. Blue based combo decks typically run Daze/Spell Pierce/FoW so they don't need to keep mana open. Slower control decks want hard counters since conditional mana counters are bad later game so they usually won't run cards like Daze.

That. Every reason DragoFireHeart gave to not ban Brainstorm (control plays them and control keeps us safe from NO Bant, Show and Tell and Reanimator) is actually the opposite. I believe those three fearsome decks would be heavily nerfed without Brainstorm.

See above. Those decks wouldn't lose much from Brainstorm compared to control decks that want a instant speed cantrip that provides excellent quality. Blue-combo decks don't mind tapping out to search for their game winning card because they are likely to kill you faster than you will them.

[SpikeyMikey]

It is good in merfolk. It's good in everything with blue. You actually need compelling reasons not to play Brainstorm in Legacy, and none of them are sufficient if you're not already in blue.

IBA, normally, even when I disagree with you, I feel there's some logic to your opinions. In this, however, I could not possibly agree less.

Brainstorm is not good in Merfolk because A: you have no shuffle effects, meaning it's roughly on par with Index and B: even if you added 8 fetches just to support Brainstorm, your deck is too consistent to take advantage of the card. You have 3 different cards. You have land cards, counter cards and lord cards. That is your deck. And by and large, it's irrelevant which land, which counter or which lord you have. So what you're doing, when you Brainstorm in Fish, is wasting precious time and mana durdling with infitesimally minor upgrades and giving your opponent a chance to develop and beat you with their superior cards.

Now if you want to cut good cards, cards that you actually want to see, for a smoothing mechanism in a deck that needs smoothing about once every time Tom LaPille gets laid (somewhat rarer than blue mooons, for those keeping score at home), be my guest. But it's a suboptimal way to fill that slot.

I don't know, maybe you've never played with the card? Maybe you're new to Legacy? Brainstorm is ludicrously good for its casting cost, people comparing it to Preordain or Ponder are missing the point entirely.

I've played with the card. I've played with it since Keeper, before fetches were even a twinkle in MaRo's eye. I've played it in Standard. I've played it in Extended. I've played it in Legacy, Vintage and even Limited. And it's a strong card. It's never been as strong as people claim it is, however. People fall all over themselves to go further and further out on how good it is.

Por ejemplo, Nightmare said in an article not long ago that in some places it's better than Ancestral Recall. And in truth, there are certain situations where Brainstorm is better. The statement isn't exactly incorrect. But if I were building a deck and could run 4 of one or the other, there's no goddamn question in my mind which one I'd be running. I don't care if I'm running NO or if I fear Thoughtseize, I'm running AR over Brainstorm every day of the week. If I accidentally draw into my Progenitus, well then goddamnit, I'll draw 3 more cards and discard the fucker. And that's the kind of shit I'm talking about. People act like Brainstorm is the second coming of the Christ. It's not.