Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

[DragoFireheart]

Here's what I think:
...or people choosing "non-real" decks like Zoo or whatever.[/list]

However, I think banning BS will snap people out of autopilot...

What in gods name are you talking about?

[Aggro_zombies]

What in gods name are you talking about?

Read a Drew Levin/Ari Lax/whoever article every now and then.

[Koby]

Well, Zoo decks main-deck artifact/enchantment hate ala Qasali Pridemage. Why not do the same for graveyards by using creatures?

you mean like:
Heap doll
yixlid jailer
scavenging ooze
Jotun grunt
?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but everyone in this thread. I have two questions (and this is assuming that the blue decks in question have reached a point of unanswerability in the current metagame with making a specific deck to prey upon it e.g. Affinity, anti-Affinity)-- are you positive that banning Brainstorm would prove to be more effective in mitigating the dominace of blue over banning and/or unbanning something else? Have you fully considered the potential repercussions of a metagame without Brainstorm?

1) I am certain that banning Brainstorm makes blue significantly worse, but it's certainly possible that banning something else would be more effective at this task. It's hard to think what, though.

2) I don't think anyone can accurately predict what a metagame without Brainstorm would look like.

[DragoFireheart]

Read a Drew Levin/Ari Lax/whoever article every now and then.

You said people will play non-blue decks like Zoo. You then said they would snap out of auto-pilot mode. Last time I checked, Zoo was more auto-pilot than blue-aggro decks.

[DragoFireheart]

you mean like:
Heap doll
yixlid jailer
scavenging ooze
Jotun grunt
?

Maverick already uses ooze (which hilariously kicks the crap out of Tarmogoyfs).

I think people should play more Maverick before calling for bans on blue.

[Aggro_zombies]

You said people will play non-blue decks like Zoo. You then said they would snap out of auto-pilot mode. Last time I checked, Zoo was more auto-pilot than blue-aggro decks.

I meant autopiloting deck/card choices.

[Koby]

Maverick already uses ooze (which hilariously kicks the crap out of Tarmogoyfs).

I think people should play more Maverick before calling for bans on blue.

Ironically, I played 2 Ooze and got T8. I also don't think that Brainstorm needs to go. Right now, Legacy is on a blue-high. R&D needs to address the imbalance between blue spells (and spell-like creatures) to give Legacy/Eternal more tools in colors other than Blue. frogboy I'm looking at you.

Until that happens, I'll continue to play Maverick and Beat On Blue.

[DragoFireheart]

I meant autopiloting deck/card choices.

Oh well in that case I still disagree since people will just auto-pilot Zoo lists. It's called net-decking.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Oh well in that case I still disagree since people will just auto-pilot Zoo lists. It's called net-decking.

people will netdeck the best deck no matter wat it is. it's silly to think banning cards will have any effect on that.

[warai]

Blue is fun to play, period.
Brainstorm is a overpowered card, but it keeps the fun of playing blue in legacy.. People are just lazy in playing other decks and everyone likes to have Daze, FoW, Brainstorm, Clique, Snapcaster, Spell Snare, Jace, etc on their side.. If Wizards want us to play all creatures vs creatures with stupid combos I'm against that kind of format.

People that are complaining and who want to see BS banned do us a favor.. Go play modern..

[makochman]

I like this post...in a format as diverse as legacy, dedicating maindeck slots to graveyard hate may just be the most pragmatic approach to the entire situation.

Kudos for this post, Oh Nameless One.

It's OK if the format makes people maindeck a single Scavenging Ooze or Bojuka Bog to tutor for. But if people had to maindeck dedicated graveyard hate cards that do little else, like Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction... that would be a different story altogether. I recall some Survival apologists argued people should do that. But nobody else wants a format like that. Hell, I even doubt those Survival players would have wanted that, 'cause if they did, they would have gone over to Standard to stomp Caw Blade with MD Torpor Orbs.

[NyxathidHorror]

You skewed that data dramatically to favor you.

Red may be more than 10% of only 30 decks but I expect it is in dramatically more decks in lower percents.

Why don't you provide more information if you have it so available? If your data is so strong and convincing you shouldn't need to manipulate it and be vague.

Also, I'm absolutely ok with blue being in 85% of those decks (whichever decks they are). It's ridiculous to decide that each color must be exactly equally represented. The format shifts and it isn't the end of the world. Bans aren't needed.

Couldn't agree more. No bans are needed...

[Mr. Safety]

you mean like:
Heap doll
yixlid jailer
scavenging ooze
Jotun grunt
?

Surgical Extraction seems pretty powerful right now, as does Nihil Spellbomb. I continue to find new targets for Surgical Extraction. Nihil Spellbomb is a cantrip along with targeted graveyard removal (which is why I think it is better suited for maindeck inclusion over Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus...but you could make a pretty good argument for Relic also.)

Imagine a format with expected maindeck graveyard hate...all of a sudden Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker don't seem so great anymore (this being the metaphorical Bizarro Fantasy Land)

[Koby]

Surgical Extraction seems pretty powerful right now, as does Nihil Spellbomb. I continue to find new targets for Surgical Extraction. Nihil Spellbomb is a cantrip along with targeted graveyard removal (which is why I think it is better suited for maindeck inclusion over Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus...but you could make a pretty good argument for Relic also.)

The original question was asking about creature's with those abilities. This class of cards allows you to still have functional yard hate while not playing dead cards. Spell-based yard hate is more narrow, even if it is good against certain decks.

How many times do enjoy facing people playing: Turn 1 Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Extirpate?

[Malakai]

Zoo is the winningest deck in Legacy's history.

[paK0]

Voted No

Something blue needs to go, but I guess Delver would be the better choice

[Lemnear]

Voted No

Something blue needs to go, but I guess Delver would be the better choice

They will never ban a creature. They might use newly printed creatures to justify banning other cards. Snapcaster could be for brainstorm that Vengevine was for Survival.

Hell, They would even print a creature that gives your Instants and Sorceries storm and LaPille would claim that the Instants and Sorceries are the problem and Not the creature.

[paK0]

They will never ban a creature. They might use newly printed creatures to justify banning other cards. Snapcaster could be for brainstorm that Vengevine was for Survival.

True, I don't think the Delver ban will happen but it is what I believe would be best for the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As someone who has advocated banning Goyf repeatedly, and still would favor that, I tend to agree with Lemnear, at least to a large extent; I think they'd be very reluctant to ban a creature for just being good on the ground again, and if it comes to a combo they prefer to ban a noncreature half. They banned Survival over Vengevine and Flash over Protean Hulk.

Whether they're burned from memories of Juggs and Kird Ape being banned in old Extended or they just figure players are more attached to their critters, I dunno. I think it also goes doubly for new cards. The odds of them banning Snapcaster or Delver over the problem spell from Legacy's dim past seem small at best. Delver right now is one of the top three or four creatures for sheer aggressiveness in Legacy before its superior color placement is taken into account; but without Brainstorm it would be significantly weaker. I think they're going to give that a go first, then.