Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Dredge can't dominate the metagame because if your opponent happens to throw four Crypts in their board you suddenly have a bad matchup.

Combo's dominance has been theorized but I don't see the logic behind it. They also use Brainstorm pretty heavily, they're not at all widely played right now so combo decks becoming maybe 20% of the meta isn't that terrifying, and they don't become any less fragile by banning Brainstorm; rather, it generally has a negative impact on their consistency.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Dredge can't dominate the metagame because if your opponent happens to throw four Crypts in their board you suddenly have a bad matchup.

Combo's dominance has been theorized but I don't see the logic behind it. They also use Brainstorm pretty heavily, they're not at all widely played right now so combo decks becoming maybe 20% of the meta isn't that terrifying, and they don't become any less fragile by banning Brainstorm; rather, it generally has a negative impact on their consistency.

Did you read his post? He said he would play Belcher, that deck does not run Brainstorm and would be pretty seriously helped by Brainstorm's banning.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Did you read his post? He said he would play Belcher, that deck does not run Brainstorm and would be pretty seriously helped by Brainstorm's banning.

Why?

Belcher would still be awful. Even ignoring sideboard cards, Force wouldn't suddenly stop being played. So you have a 30-50% chance of playing against blue each round instead of 60-100%. So what? Those are still bad odds. Let alone anyone throwing down an Elephant Grass or EE or something after you get all your goblins.

[UnderwaterGuy]

oh you're right. I forgot about that meta-defining card, Elephant Grass.

I've made my argument and provided reasoning for it. You've come up with narrow, largely unplayed cards that counter specific decks that I used as examples.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

oh you're right. I forgot about that meta-defining card, Elephant Grass.

I've made my argument and provided reasoning for it. You've come up with narrow, largely unplayed cards that counter specific decks that I used as examples.

Right, I remember when I said,

Belcher can't be good because Elephant Grass.

Oh wait, you're just being a dishonest twat and this is what I actually said:

Why?

Belcher would still be awful. Even ignoring sideboard cards, Force wouldn't suddenly stop being played. So you have a 30-50% chance of playing against blue each round instead of 60-100%. So what? Those are still bad odds. Let alone anyone throwing down an Elephant Grass or EE or something after you get all your goblins.

Infraction issued for insulting other members.
-4eak

[Gheizen64]

oh you're right. I forgot about that meta-defining card, Elephant Grass.

I've made my argument and provided reasoning for it. You've come up with narrow, largely unplayed cards that counter specific decks that I used as examples.

Belcher majorly sucks as it has like a 30% matchup against anything that run blue, including merfolk that doesn't use BS. For belcher to be actually viable it would need literally a format with 0 blue decks in it, and even then it would randomly lose to a lot of things, including T1 revoker, needle, EE and Grass (yes grass is played in enchantress) CotV or T2 Teeg from maverick.

Belcher sucks and stating "Belcher would dominate without BS" is equally silly as saying that Kobold glimpse would. Those decks are terribly inconsistent. Take a look at the combo decks that are actually played, they run either pacts and FoW (SpiralTide, Reanimator) or discard (AnT) or chants effect (TES) or have a secondary win route via aggro (elves). In other words, they're not built to be one-trick ponies. Ah and beside that, Reanimator, Spiraltide and AnT all use BS.

[DragoFireheart]

Dredge can't dominate the metagame because if your opponent happens to throw four Crypts in their board you suddenly have a bad matchup.

-Dredge can easily fight through Crypts. Leyline of the Void is much worse IIRC.

Combo's dominance has been theorized but I don't see the logic behind it. They also use Brainstorm pretty heavily, they're not at all widely played right now so combo decks becoming maybe 20% of the meta isn't that terrifying, and they don't become any less fragile by banning Brainstorm; rather, it generally has a negative impact on their consistency.

-If that is the case then people will be more likely to play faster yet more inconsistent decks like Belcher.

[catmint]

Why?

Belcher would still be awful. Even ignoring sideboard cards, Force wouldn't suddenly stop being played. So you have a 30-50% chance of playing against blue each round instead of 60-100%. So what? Those are still bad odds. Let alone anyone throwing down an Elephant Grass or EE or something after you get all your goblins.

I think without Brainforce the blue shell would be played a lot less. It is just so much harder to fight combo AND aggro/midrange strategies. So why not just play one of those. Since a lot people dismiss the blue shell why should more people play Maverick,... to beat blue. Obvious choice -> More combo

[Vacrix]

-If that is the case then people will be more likely to play faster yet more inconsistent decks like Belcher.

You guys shouldn't be afraid of Belcher if BS gets banned; be afraid of SI. Spanish Inquisition, like Belcher, can only benefit from a weakened blue shell as SI doesn't play Brainstorm, unlike their ANT/TES/FT counterparts. SI will be even faster in context of these other combo decks that will likely slow down a half turn or so because they lose their best cantrip (usually enabling a turn 2 or pushing a turn 1). I don't care either way if Brainstorm gets banned but if it does and we have another combo winter, SI is a pretty good contender to beat a bunch of slower combo decks that lack their best cantrip.

[DragoFireheart]

You guys shouldn't be afraid of Belcher if BS gets banned; be afraid of SI. Spanish Inquisition, like Belcher, can only benefit from a weakened blue shell as SI doesn't play Brainstorm, unlike their ANT/TES/FT counterparts. SI will be even faster in context of these other combo decks that will likely slow down a half turn or so because they lose their best cantrip (usually enabling a turn 2 or pushing a turn 1). I don't care either way if Brainstorm gets banned but if it does and we have another combo winter, SI is a pretty good contender to beat a bunch of slower combo decks that lack their best cantrip.

Oh yeah, forgot about SI. Hehe, that thing is quite a bit worse.

[I am the brainwasher]

I think the best way to figure out whats to do is letting the format time to breathe.
Sadly, this is a thing so many players talk about because they somewhat snapped that up from some semi-intelligent comments which are often quite convincing at first glance, but what does that really mean?
That means, that legacy definetly needs some time restore balance after Mental Mistep, which is at the moment nearly impossible due to Snapcaster because it fits into the same role of many decks. So, letting the format time to breathe, really, is only possible if Snapcaster leaves Legacy alone.
If you look at it, Mental Mistep pushed some decks dangerously over the top, even if each deck got THE answer against that trend in terms of, well, Mental Mistep.
When you look at the current situation, you realize that Snapcaster Mage not only improved those few decks which had their high-life-time with MM beeing legal, but also those which suffered very badly from it and which are blue.
I dont know why so many people waste their time with analysis here and there, arguing about things that actually dont matter with ignoring completely what each card on its own AND in combination with others does to the format.
By the way, if you really want to look at it that way, isnt Snapcaster way more similar to Survival than Brainstorm? Yes it is. Brainstorm is, again if you want to push it that hard into this direction, way more comparable to Vengevine than anything else.
So which card is more dangerous over a long time, Brainstorm or Snapcaster?
The answer simply is Snapcaster and I really cant understand why so many players ignore the sheer power of the card, especially in Legacy. Nobody even talks about banning Snapcaster at all, which doesnt make sense at all.
Everyone who cries out loud or has the time to make mile-long analysis, let it be useful or not, should think about what would really happen to Legacy if brainstorm gets banned, honestly.
If you want to Vintage 2.0 better move forward with that nonsense... .

[Hof]

I personally enjoy The Format with Brainstorm, either when I'm playing a deck with blue, or when I'm playing something else against blue. When my opponents cast Brainstorm, I never think to myself 'what a dumb card, why isnt it banned?', I am much more likely to think 'what a great card'.

I guess Wizards wasn't totally wrong when they wrote in the day 1 blog of GP Amsterdam:

"One way or another, Brainstorm is a card that is many players' motivation to be playing Legacy, and is a defining card in the format."
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...e/gpams11/day1

[Dark Ritual]

You guys shouldn't be afraid of Belcher if BS gets banned; be afraid of SI. Spanish Inquisition, like Belcher, can only benefit from a weakened blue shell as SI doesn't play Brainstorm, unlike their ANT/TES/FT counterparts. SI will be even faster in context of these other combo decks that will likely slow down a half turn or so because they lose their best cantrip (usually enabling a turn 2 or pushing a turn 1). I don't care either way if Brainstorm gets banned but if it does and we have another combo winter, SI is a pretty good contender to beat a bunch of slower combo decks that lack their best cantrip.

Exactly my line of thinking. If brainstorm gets banned I'm going right back to SI to punish the nonblue players hard since SI doesn't run brainstorm except for that one variant with brainstorm (QSI). Then again I would be rocking PSI again since that would be the fastest combo deck by far (then again it is right now in terms of what turn it literally wins).

I'd hate to see brainstorm go then again people are already bitching and moaning about brainstorm so it's gonna get banned because people can't play nonblue decks and win with them because they're bad players who use blue as a crutch. Aggro loam is a contender as is enchantress, maverick, zoo, and so many other nonblue decks that people refuse to play because they love to use force of will despite the fact that FoW is inherently a bad card since, again, it's a 2 for 1.

[thefringthing]

I don't know if Ari, Liam, or Bryant have spoken in this thread, but I'll speak on behalf of Storm players in case they haven't.

Storm (by this I mean ANT/TNT/TES, and possibly High Tide) wouldn't be harmed too much by Brainstorm leaving the format. Current Storm lists usually contain about 8 to 10 cantrips. {4 Ponder, 4 Preordain, 2 Gitaxian Probe} is certainly worse than {4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2 Preordain}, but the former cantrip suite is by no means crippling to the strategy.

I don't mean for this to be an argument for or against banning Brainstorm, just as a piece of theoretical information about the format.

[makochman]

The answer simply is Snapcaster and I really cant understand why so many players ignore the sheer power of the card, especially in Legacy. Nobody even talks about banning Snapcaster at all, which doesnt make sense at all.

Snapcaster has only just been printed, so they are unlikely to ban it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Snapcaster has only just been printed, so they are unlikely to ban it.

Well, Misstep had only just been printed...

EDIT: Not that I think SCM should be banned. I just don't think that a card's recent printing suffices any more.

[Dark Ritual]

Snapcaster has only just been printed, so they are unlikely to ban it.

I hate this line of thinking with a passion. What if tomorrow black lotus was functionally reprinted? Would that get banned? I'm sure it would get banned prior to release in every format and restricted in vintage. Snapcaster is a banworthy card, it is literally that powerful. I had dreams in 2008 of flashbacking some of the sweet instants and sorceries that were in legacy but alas they hadn't printed that card yet. Now they have and now that I've seen snapcaster in action I'm a believer in that it is one of the most powerful cards in legacy and will continue to be one of the most powerful cards in legacy. Is it banworthy? Yes.

On ANT/TES without brainstorm. They would be quite crippled without brainstorm, you can't simply replace brainstorm with preordain in TES and be as fast as you were when you had brainstorm. Brainstorm is the best cantrip in the game of magic. The only remotely comparable cantrips are ponder and preordain, but they are worse in every way. Every time I draw a ponder or preordain I wish it was brainstorm.

[makochman]

I hate this line of thinking with a passion. What if tomorrow black lotus was functionally reprinted? Would that get banned? I'm sure it would get banned prior to release in every format and restricted in vintage. Snapcaster is a banworthy card, it is literally that powerful. I had dreams in 2008 of flashbacking some of the sweet instants and sorceries that were in legacy but alas they hadn't printed that card yet. Now they have and now that I've seen snapcaster in action I'm a believer in that it is one of the most powerful cards in legacy and will continue to be one of the most powerful cards in legacy. Is it banworthy? Yes.

Love or hate it... the format has hardly had time to develop since the recent shakeups. SCM may well turn out to have been just another fad. But if it's banned in December, we'll never know. If by March it's a problem - ban with extreme prejudice.

In 2008 I wanted a beater bigger than Tarmogoyf, that tutor up Wastelands into play, a Watchwolf with a disenchant ability, a better Llanowar Elf, and a spell to tutor up any of them. These things happened, but none of them turned out broken.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Love or hate it... the format has hardly had time to develop since the recent shakeups. SCM may well turn out to have been just another fad. But if it's banned in December, we'll never know. If by March it's a problem - ban with extreme prejudice.

In 2008 I wanted a beater bigger than Tarmogoyf, that tutor up Wastelands into play, a Watchwolf with a disenchant ability, a better Llanowar Elf, and a spell to tutor up any of them. These things happened, but none of them turned out broken.

And those things might not be as strong as a 2/1 flash for 2 that gets you back any sorcery or instant from your graveyard. SCM is an extremely powerful card that's a lot closer to SFM than stuff like KotR/GSZ.

I don't think that he should be banned but his interaction with other cards puts him a lot closer to bannable than simple effective creatures.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Snapcaster is fairly mana intensive, it's never actually 2cc (not with Misstep banned anyway).

Its numbers aren't that intimidating, performance wise. It's good but hardly banworthy.