@resum :
you have a discard plan post SB and you only have 1 bayou to produce B and no birchlore ranger. It means that this discard plan cannot be used against decks that play wasteland.
You are not able to win the turn you succeed in combo glimpse directly because you don't have any kill MD (Ezuri, Emrakul, mirror entity, joraga warcaller). I think you should play one of them.
This is a misconception gained from valuing individual cards as approximately equal. Cradle is so powerful that drawing 2 of them is still better than drawing 2 forests (since Cradle adds more than 2 mana most of the time) and only slightly worse than drawing cradle-forest. Drawing multiples actually helps you play them through Wasteland as well, so the second one is often helpful. There is simply no reason to play less than 4 as long as you have them. Cradle is the most powerful mana engine this deck can run, you need to max out on them in any combo elves list. I guess 3 would be ok in a list with MD Vengevine but I doubt that is optimal.Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
Thanks for that...summed up the argument nicely. I have *zero* Cradle's right now, but if I can trade into some, I will. They are the only pricey piece of the deck left to get. GSZ's, Vengevines, Buried Alive, and Living Wishes are all fairly affordable (by legacy standards) so I'm not worried about those.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
You make me doubt concerning the number of cradle.
I really hesitate.
Just remember that Cradle makes mulliganing more awkward in a deck that's already anything but good at it. Elves are already plenty broken once they get rolling, making the stable mana source that is basic lands more relevant imo. Granted this gets more marked the higher average manacost you've got but it's still worth keeping in mind.
High risk, high reward. I think its a justified risk in the case of a streamlined Elves list.
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samman1 would you consider Magus of the Moon for your SB? I know the Cradles would be screwed, but if you use it in the right time could be very good and against some decks it could be game over for them. What do you think about it?
Played at my local FNM this week, went 1-1-1 overall, but I was pleased with the games. I made one misplay that cost me a draw, but that's it, the rest of the games were played as well as the cards could have played and the hands were quite good--sometimes, you just can't win, and I was ok with that because I was happy with how I lost, not unhappy that I lost.
Round 1: Rich with U/B Control (2-0)
Game 1: I fight through some serious hate. I keep a pretty sick hand, Glimpse Heritage Birchlore GSZ Land Land Nettle. I lose the roll, he plays watery grave, I play land nettle go. He brainstorms EOT, next turn, hymn's me. It hits Heritage and Land (FFFFFFFfffffff...). It's fine, I have a GSZ, I can just go find another heritage and draw into a glimpse. Next turn, no land pull, he hymns me again, GSZ and Glimpse (FFFFFFFuuuuuuuuuu...) I persevered though and did what elves does, overwhelm. There's a lot of removal, but there's more elves, and I keep playing them and keeping him tapped out trying to stop it. A mishra's factory keeps me at bay for awhile, there's no reason to lose elves and only do minor damage. I only had 2-4 elves on the board at any given time, but I made it there, eventually I got a lord in play and could generate some mana, I bounce joraga warcaller to hand and swing for lethal next turn.
Game 2: Same deal, except this time I'm not quite so worried about it, I combo off and win through some hate on turn 5 or 6.
1-0-0
Round 2: Casey with Flashless Hulk Combo: (1-1-1)
Game 1: I combo turn 3, emrakul never comes, I draw literally every land in my deck, I bounced with all 4 symbiotes, I burnt every pact, and my hand ended up being 3 green sun zenith's and 12 lands. He combos off on his next turn and wins. My misplay was not thinking in the long term, I never bounced a visionary I just bounced whatever because I was on a strong ass roll and I had something like 40 mana when I fizzled. I don't even know if that can be legitimately considered a misplay, I had 1/3rd of my deck left and somehow all 15 lands were in play or in my hand and I just ran out of shit to do. Emrakul was 2 cards from the top, had I bounced a visionary 2-3 times instead of 1 mana dudes, I would have won.
Game 2: I side in all of my GY hate. I get one relic in play, but I fear that he can play around it by simply saccing a hulk into another hulk or something (so that if the first time the combo leaves he can do it again), so I aim to combo. The combo starts slow, but as elves do, it rolls hard. Emrakul is the second to last card in my deck, this stands as no problem however--I'm currently running off of 3 glimpses because I am frustrated I can't find Emrakul. I end up with 3 cards left in my graveyard, I play a guy, draw 3, play all 4 green sun's for 0 and plop them in the library, start my next turn, I pay 12(!!!) on my upkeep with dudes for pact triggers and swing, in response he goes to combo off on me, he tries to bait my 2 relics in play over and over, but I patiently wait for Body Double to get sacced as Hulk to find Reveillark and blow up our graveyards--with no ability to further combo he loses to a lethal swing.
Game 3: We start the game and within moments go to turns since my combo took too long and I fizzled game 1 (still a little frustrated about that, as this win would have secured me second place). He goes first, which means he also goes last IE: he gets his turn 3. Had I gotten turn 3, I would have sort of won, emrakul trigger would tie anyways. I couldn't combo turn 2 which saddens me. He combos on the 3rd turn and realizes that he accidentally sided out his win condition in a rush to try and get to game three, he sighs and sacrifices mogg fanatic to hit me for 1 and passes the turn, a sigh of relief for myself--I'll take it, but it shouldn't have gotten here.
1-0-1
Round 3: RUG Control: (1-2)
Game 1: I combo off turn 4 after ripping a glimpse off the top, I learned how you go off turn 2 and was very excited to see it in action. I started it very slow via birchlore / Nettle / Nettle, being able to only operate off of one mana. Luckily for me, I top decked like 5 one drops in a row into a third nettle and a summoning pact, realizing that this was my moment, I pacted for heritage, kept pulling cards and generated enough mana to find and play emrakul.
Game 2: I board in some aggro, I have a clear shot to win, I go for a glimpse, he counters it, I pass. Next turn, I go to tap heritages to get enough mana to play GSZ to find Regal, he stifles the trigger (WHAT!?). Next turn, finally, I drop my cradle (he has wasteland in play) and GSZ for 7. In response, he surgical extractions glimpse with lethal on the board--the likelihood that I wouldn't pull one of my remaining 3 glimpses in the 9(!) cards that I drew is low, I had to pass the turn and get swung out by delvers. ((The reason I had 8 creatures and wasn't swinging, is I had about 4 the previous turn, I went to glimpse with a stacked hand, he forced it, so I counted it out and knew I could regal for 9 if I just drop my hand and go for it but it'll take 2 turns, surgical extraction I didn't see coming, nor can I really do anything about it.))
Game 3: I board in more aggro and keep the glimpse plan on the backburner, my opening hand is Champion, Champion, Fyndhorn, Land, Land, GSZ, and Heritage. I keep the shit out of that hand. Turn 2 champion, bolts it. Turn 3 champion, bolts it. GSZ for champion, it lands! I start swinging, I get him down to 1, but he has double delvers up, he snapcasters for bolt on champion and killed something else, delvers swung for the win.
1-1-1
Overall I was super happy with how I played. I went for a way more stream lined list to the emrakul goal. Comboing, so long as glimpse resolved, was almost a given (except once, I mini glimpsed, it was obvious it wouldn't work, but it did draw 3 lands in a row which was .. I guess useful for digging through it, had I gotten a heritage I probably would have been fine). I only ran 3 lords, 4 I guess with my singleton cradle (monetary issue), and it actually felt great. Sometimes I missed arch druid's +1'ing for aggro, but as has been pointed out, relying on lords really makes you prone to removal, by relying on birchlore and heritage, they're cheap and plentiful, removal is easier to deal with by leaps and bounds, comboing is easier, winning is easier.
The games I lost happened because I couldn't win, not because I screwed up, and the one game I did lose because I screwed up was in a super obscure way..at the time, I needed the mana to keep going if I recall, and playing a 2 mana guy wasn't possible to maintain generating mana with nettle, so I think I actually had to play the one drops otherwise I would have been bouncing visionaries.
So on top of an awesome night of playing and meeting some new people, my friend and I decided to each buy a pack of revised edition (the store has them for 30$ a piece). I open it up, and to my surprise cracked a Volcanic Island from it! In a set of 121 rares, the chances of my getting a dual land are like one in every 12 packs, I was stoked.
So I played my list at a recent legacy tournament and I was very pleased with it. Only problem was what samman1 brought up and I might want a game 1 instant kill thing like emrakul main. I'm going to try and find room for it. I only have one bayou because the matchups where I want the discard are combo ones where they normally don't have wasteland and I really want to be able to pass turn 2 with 2 forests up sometimes. I beat 2 junk decks, a burn deck, lost to a B/W stoneforge deck and then drew with my friend playing merfolk. The B/W stoneforge decks just seem like terrible matchups and I'm not sure it's worth trying to make better. I did get unlucky and he never hit vengevines off his hymms. The highlight of the day was when I burned out a junk player who had jitte and sword of body and mind out with mortarpod.
I have played Magus of the moon in SB 2 years ago. I used to play it via chord of calling@3. Whenever I had the opportunity to play a chord@3, I prefered fetching mirror entity for the win.
The main advantage of the card is when you play against lands.deck. This lands.deck is no longer played so I don't play magus now.
Hey guys, Long time lurker of the thread. I play a mono green list (similar to IBA's manalord version) that has been doing fairly well:
Lands: 14
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
Creatures: 34
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Regal Force
Other: 12
4 GSZ
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish
Sb: 15
1 Regal Force
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Essence Warden
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Masticore
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Gaddock Teeg
I admit that this list is indeed slower than versions which run pact, but I want cards that are good at all stages of the game. Living wish provides utility without clogging the md full of bullets.
I've been struggling with tempo thresh/canadian thresh. I've tried a small white splash for a few absolute laws in the sb, but it was largely unsuccessful. Any advice from players who have positive or even mu's with tempo thresh would greatly be appreciated. I know some players argue the vengevine route. Players who splash black for the vengevine plan: How do you guys board in the VV package? What decks do you bring it in against?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but why do you guys keep going for the Living Wish builds? Its a dead end.. Hasnt produced any significant results in comparison to the other builds (Nick Malatesta's, Ross', Samuel's...).
Go Online and test them, you'll have more fun :)
I have to agree with this sentiment. The day I dropped the living wish mentality, my consistency, strength, and overall success with the deck has greatly improved. Living wish builds are clunky and sometimes actually difficult to win with because you remove your win condition (which is uncounterable) with a counterable substitute (this is relevant, even if you have a board full of elves, a host of cards can remove that position quickly).
I agree with the sentiment of wanting a way to fetch Emrakul, of which, some suggestions were made that I may be looking into (although, I believe I'll be building G/W Maverick in the near future, elves gives me too much of a rollercoaster of emotions when I play it haha).
Things like;
Primal Command
Time of Need
Chord of Calling
Fierce Empath
I'm of the opinion that 2 Fierce Empath's would be better than any of those cards, as he's entirely tutorable, relatively cheap to play on the combo turn, draws a card for glimpse, is an elf, and gets Emrakul OR regal force.
No offense taken. I've tested several standardized mono green lists and white splash variants which run md pact, shaman, and emrakul instead of wish. I found these lists to be faster but less consistent and I've been less successful with them. The only thing I really haven't had experience with is testing vengevines either in a U or B splash. As for wish builds not putting up results, I just assumed that was because it's not as common.
@Kich867: I don't think the counter argument is very valid. Most opponents never counter wish because they assume they will counter what you fetch with it. If you're in mid combo then you can guarantee that your opponent has already spent every counter they have trying to counter glimpse or regal force. I agree that wish can be clunky at times, but pact can be clunky and dangerous especially when your trying to set up the combo.
It was the standard for awhile, no one really did anything with it, then Ross came along and blew some minds, so we stopped doing it because it's usually pretty bad. My problem was this, when do you even play Living Wish? What if you don't see another one, you can't use it as an effective tutor and as a tutor for combo pieces it's -far- and away the worst. It hurts your combo turn, it hurts your sideboard, it forces you to wait until you find a second one (if you even can) in order to play it during your combo turn, otherwise you want to use it to find emrakul when you CAN get that mana.
Why can't you use it as an effective tutor? When you combo out, there's no way in the world you won't see another one unless your in the extremely unlikely scenario that you've played 2-3 copies and the last 1 or 2 are at the very bottom of your deck and let's face it with all these shuffle effects that's extremely rare. When do you play wish? At any point during the game which is more than I can say for pact. I completely agree with you that pact is better on your combo turn, but i've only had a few cases where the 2 mana for wish + the cost of whatever I fetch prevent me from the win and if I didn't win that turn then I most likely won the following turn. I feel that I've had more situations where I had pact in hand and was missing some piece of acceleration to go off but I lacked mana to safely pay its upkeep cost.
I know wish sbs seem more cute than effective, but having a g1 answer to reanimator and dredge in the form of bojuka bog or faerie macabre and being free from having to run bullets in the main seem worth it to me.
On paper, 2 mana doesn't sound like a lot to pay, but IF elves is going to fail to combo it is going to happen early, and you can't afford that two mana. If you combo, you'll likely win, Wish is deceptive because it's like, "Hey you can actually just not even put emrakul and other bullshit in the mainboard and focus just on elves!".. except you remove a ton of pieces from the main board to put in the sideboard to justify running wish..so it doesn't actually help you that much because it's just lowering your consistency.
This was originally a very long exhausting post explaining to why Living Wish is outclassed by Pact, but it's probably not worth going that in depth if you're set on it. I mean, your build is only actually running 4 searches.
In your build, Living Wish has 1 target during a combo, Emrakul. That's very inflexible.. (Obviously you have Archdruid and Ranger in there, but you didn't put any of the combo in there which is hurtful).
My deck has 12 ways to find Heritage, Nettle, and Symbiote. Yours has 8. Despite that you have 4 ways to find Emrakul, it doesn't actually matter, because the consistency of the combo is what finds Emrakul, not living wish. You don't have to rely on it to find him because if your combo turn is smooth and good, like Pact and GSZ make it, you'll almost always find him, I've only ever not found him once so far and it was just unlucky that all 15 of my lands were on the upper half of my deck.
That's why I asked, when do you actually play Wish if not for Emrakul during your combo turn? What does it get besides him that actually helps you win the combo turn?
In a super ideal world there's always the next turn to win, but the number of my games that go down to the wire are numerous and frequent, that next turn is often not there when you were trying to set your combo up through 2 delvers a goyf and daze / fow / bolts or back to back hymns.
The best argument I can see for Living Wish is to be able to find Gaea's Cradle consistently. Other than that, Living Wish is really weak for the deck. Smart opponents WILL counter Living Wish, and that will ruin your day very faster. Consider that too that Spell Snare is becoming ubiquitous rather quickly in all the Tempo decks, and that's the last card you want to have to resolve to keep going off when you can otherwise ignore it.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Fair points rukcus. Cradle, Regal Force, emrakul, and shaman are my usual targets. I agree that spell snare is very popular at the moment and that is certainly bad for wish. Do you guys disagree then that wish>pact in almost all situations except the combo turn?
My matchup with tempo thresh seems to be about even if not slightly unfavorable. Anyone having solid success in this match up?
@kich: Wish is definitely lackluster during the combo turn. But when I reach the point of comboing off, it's pretty unlikely I don't win even if i have a wish in hand. The main purpose of wish is to help setup by grabbing regal force, quirion ranger, or cradle. I agree that during your combo turn grabbing emrakul with it is bad in comparison to just drawing out your deck and finding your 1 of and casting him but it doesn't matter because at that point you have the win. Usually, if I'm comboing off and all I have are wishes I'll fetch a one drop usually essence warden or ranger (which is bad I know) to keep the combo going. 90% of the time, I'm still able to combo off and win that turn. Also, keep in mind that my deck relies less on heritage druid and nettle sentinel because I run 4 priest and 3 archdruid. Untapping with either one of them usually enables me to combo off the following turn, or cast wish for regal force and then combo off. I apologize for bringing this topic up again if it's already been discussed in detail. I'll peruse the previous pages and look for that post explaining why pact is >wish.
On a separate note, could someone explain their vengevine sb strategy to me?
I think the point is that why would you pay 1G when you can pay 0? During the combo turn your mana production can either be just-not-enough or it blows up into all the mana you will certainly need. That extra two mana early on will very often cause your end game mana production to diverge to infinity. I know it won't grab Emrakul necessarily but the negative scenario of the probability that you don't draw into him is far compensated by the consistency and extra mana the other tutors offer.
If you want cradle then I swear by crop rotation. 3 cradle main, 2 crop rotation. Saccing cradle to find cradle is so clutch.
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