Reset etxt is quite explicit.
"All your lands untap. Reset can only be played on an opponent's turn after his or her upkeep phase."
Upkeep phase ends and then he draws -- correct ?
I figured out the FoI and I will stick with it, although I do have PtD too, so I can test it out.
Thanks again, and I got it to work well today and then it fizzled twice in a row vs my next opponent. Oh well, I can get on the bus again tomorrow.
Cheers
This doesn't seem right. In case you're not aware of the Brainstorm-Freeze trick, here is an alternate line of play that illustrates it:Originally Posted by SupREME-10
- High Tide, Meditate, Brainstorm, Reset, Brain Freeze, Storm Trigger (first copy targets you, other copies target your opponent).
- Let the first Brain Freeze resolve (puts two useless cards you put on top of library with Brainstorm on the graveyard).
- Impulse (let's you see 4 new cards instead of two).
Another relevant problem is that everyone not playing Spell Snare, Pierces, Forces, Dazes (and flashing this crap back with Snapcaster) is Green Sun Zenith'ing into Gaddock Teeg on turns 2-3.
Just because the winning lists are running outdated tech doesn't mean that new tech sucks. Rather it means that most Solidarity players are conservative. After all, to even decide to PLAY Solidarity in the current metagame is conservative. Most people want to stick to what they know works for them, but please note that I specifically tested this quite a lot, coming to the conclusion that I not once wanted FoI when I could have had PtD. Just play a few hands with it and you'll see the difference.
My problem with FoI is that we are a fundamental turn slower than the format allows a combo deck to be. Though we go off whenever we NEED to go off, we must consider that our target turn to go off is around turn 4 or 5 if we don't want to get steam rolled by aggro. PtD is much like Impulse. I find that even though it can't grab a land, I'm far better prepared when I go off than when I play FoI. I've found that FoI either wastes an entire turn so that I spend 2U to draw ONE card, or I wind up sinking all my mana to demonic tutor into something that I could have found while I was setting up instead. Further, you can just chain 2 PtD's together or PtD into Impulse to find the business spell you need, which is literally the exact same thing if you consider how far you really need to look into the deck to find something. Isn't 9 or 10 cards deep enough?
Besides, PtD functioning in mostly the exact same way as FoI in that respect, it enables far better pre-combo turns. Do you want to sink 2U to draw a card or do you want to scope the top 5 cards for something useful for when you are already comboing? I don't see whats so hard about this. Most of the lists that are playing these run some combination of 2 BF 2 FoI. I run 1 BF and 3 PtD instead. My spell chains are longer but I actually get to combo more consistently against aggro than you probably do. Seriously if you have to BF --> FoI have you considered that maybe instead you could have just played another version of Impulse (PtD) into Meditate and then continued with your spell chain? I really dislike the 2 BF/2 FoI configuration because I think the 4 Wish builds allow you to craft better spell chains. Granted, they are longer but you can start them faster than in the BF/FoI builds.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Nice discussion, should we simply cuta FoI for PtD and that's it? Could i see your list?
Moreover, which version are you now playing guys? Clique/ Snap, Snapcaster/Sanap, Dismember-C. command / Repeal? None?
Well I could certainly go for Peer Through Depths; but I am not cutting my Flash of Insight outright. I will swap and test the pros cons for both cards and report back after 100+ games.
As for Snapcaster Snap (I do own these too), I simply don't like adding creatures to the equation. One of the whole reason I wanted to make a solidarity deck was to avoid opponent interaction where ever possible. A creature less deck negates all of their removal spells outright (dismember, StoP, PtE, etc) and if Snap only works if you have a creature to hit (not counting theirs) and if they remove the creature they will break your chain right there. I know all about Snap tricks, as I have a Pauper version of Solidarity (which works very well in the Pauper format) but that is not what I am looking for in this deck.
Anyway, here is my pauper deck for those interested.
Spells
1 x Capsize
2 x Compulsive Research
4 x Deep Analysis
2 x Gigadrowse
4 x High Tide
4 x Ideas Unbound
4 x Impulse
4 x Merchant Scroll
4 x Ponder
4 x Preordain
4 x Snap
3 x Words of Wisdom
Creatures
3 x Cloud of Faeries
2 x Mnemonic Wall
Land
16 x Island
Sideboard
3 x Boomerang
3 x Dispel
4 x Disrupt
2 x Gigadrowse
3 x Hydroblast
*** OK so back on the subject of Proper Legacy Solidarity ***
Here is my deck once again. Where/what do I remove to add the forth Cunning Wish, and how do I improve my Sideboard.
Maindeck -- no Creatures or Artifacts for that matter too.
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Cryptic Command
3 x Cunning Wish -- want to add one more
2 x Flash of Insight or 2 x Peer Through Depths
4 x Force of Will
3 x High Tide
4 x Impulse
3 x Meditate
3 x Opt
1 x Peek
3 x Remand
4 x Reset
2 x Spell Pierce
3 x Turnabout But also thinking that Peer Through Depths might fit in this slot
3 x Brain Freeze -- thinking to remove 1 here, maybe 2 as my deck is still 61 cards
18 Land -- sticking to mono-blue for now.
1 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Scalding Tarn
12 x Island
Sideboard
1 x Ravenous Trap
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Blue Sun's Zenith
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Hibernation
1 x High Tide
1 x Meditate
1 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Cryptic Command
1 x Turnabout
1 x Wipe Away
1 x Rebuild or Hurkyl’s Recall (need a black border one)
@ Psychovoid I figured out the Brainstorm -- brainfreeze to remove dead cards -- into impulse etc trick; but thanks for solidifying that as solid tech.
Oh and honestly, I still have problems to go off consistently on turn 4, it is more like Turn 5+ as I am finding my draws, digs, etc often do little to help me set up other than find more of what I already have in hand. I know that more practice is the first place to start; but I need to be ready by Dec 3 as I do not feel like running my Merfolk or Sligh at that event.
Thanks in advance
Hello Supreme,
In your list, which targets do you wish for?
Also for Alastair, do you keep track of your wish targets?
I've written down for a time which targets I wish into, and most of the time, it was the cards I basically wanted to put into the mainboard anyway.
Imho, never run 3 Tide MB and 1 in the SB.
Wishless is working fine for me.
I'm actually testing a list now without any Repeals or Snaps.
This is because I saw Mikko's recent 1st place finish.
Instead of running 2 Repeal 1 Snap, I'm running 2 Disrupt and 1 Twincast.
Twincast is a playstyle dependant choise. To me it has always been working like an Swiss army knife; there's always good use for it, but then again, you're not missing the card when you're not playing it.
Disrupt can be a real pain to your opponent when played right, haven't tested it enough yet to conclude if it's worth MD space.
PS. GZS into Gaddock Teeg isn't that stunning. It locks down FoI and BZS, nothing more.
Sorry for the short post, little time!
I was thinking on Disrupt very seriously since it proposal in MD. It's a full cantrip and disrruption card. Also, during the combo it's a pesudoRemand: you can cast a spell, "disrrupt" it, pay (1), draw your card and keep going off.
C. wish is a mana intesnive card but it gives us a constant protection to extirpate / surgical extraction besides the versatility and virtual copies of important cards.
My common wish targets:
1-BSZ
2-Meditate
3-H. tide
4-Turnabout
In that order. I'll try a version without clique and snap (4 slot) and replace them with 3 Disrrupt and maybe a cryptic command.
I lent my list to a friend. I just play Pact SI at the moment but now that Snapcaster exists I plan on trying to incorporate it into my list somewhere. Otherwise, I was running:
U/g Solidarity
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Peer Through Depths
1 Brain Freeze
4 Cunning Wish
3 Three Wishes
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
SB:
1 High Tide
1 Brain Freeze
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Tangle
1 Krosan Grip
I haven't updated my list in a while but this list was working pretty well for me. The obvious differences from other lists are:
- No Remands and fewer Brainfreezes
Running Remands and Brainfreezes ensures that your hand will be diluted with cards that don't actually start the combo to get you to enough spells where you can play this two card synergic kill. So I run one Brainfreeze and put far more focus on getting the combo started.
- Three Wishes
It works pretty well in combination with Meditate. You can't set up with it, but you rarely set up with Meditate anyway. I found that having business in hand meant that I could devote my other cantrips to finding Resets and High Tides. After all, you want to have High Tide, Reset, Meditate (ideally) when you go off. Why not increase the number of virtual Meditates? Generally, this means that you naturally draw your business and can then focus your cantrips on grabbing Resets.
- Peer Through Depths
Increasing the number of virtual Impulses gives you a far more consistent Impulse effect on your 2nd turn, or include it in your 3rd turn with a 1cc cantrip. During the combo turn its still fantastic as its 1U to search the top 5. Though most say they would rather have FoI, I prefer Peer as you can just as easily chain Peer into Peer into business. It cost is less than or equal to the cost of FoI anyway, and looking 9 or 10 cards is more than enough, especially with as much business as I play.
- Cunning Wish
I play a 4 Wish build because it gives you a fairly consistent turn 4 kill, something we ought to pursue in modern Legacy. If you can't get to a turn 4 kill on the play then aggro will kill you on turn 4. Goblins and Zoo can occasionally kill you on turn 3 so to expect anything less than a turn 4 kill against aggro is asking a lot. Cunning Wish --> Brainfreeze is usually my kill condition, followed by a Cunning Wish --> Words of Wisdom/Stroke. Without the Remand/BF trick, you'll expect far longer spell chains but with so much card advantage from Meditates AND Three Wishes its not really too hard to get both Brainfreeze and a spell to make them draw.
- Tangle
Its great against aggro and you can even board it in against aggro control if they play a really aggressive list. I just board out my extra business, Three Wishes, for them. I don't find myself losing to Wasteland that much either, as you might expect. You just have to be careful and calculate the damage so that you are playing Tangle to buy you two turns before you go off. Losing a land can be worth it in the grand scheme of things if you can replace it in the turns that you gain by losing it.
- Krosan Grip
Great against CB. Another good reason to splash green. Then again, not too many people play CB these days but the deck isn't dead.
Changes...
I'm thinking of cutting the Turnabout engine (which is really a supports Turnabouts) and testing Snapcaster and Snap because it might work well in the post-board with Tangle. Buying 2 turns with Tangle can make all the difference against an opponent with lethal damage in his next attack phase. Snapcaster buys you 2 additional turns, which is plenty of time to play a few more cantrips and sculpt that game winning hand.
Also, if I have Snapcasters I might well just cut Three Wishes because then I can recast my Meditates.
EDIT:
For the record Peer was fantastic in the classic list as well. I even played it instead of Impulse for a while just to test and I kept wishing my FoI's were Impulses. Its just that good.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Wow, lots of great info guys, so thanks a lot.
I will tweek the list and test things some more. Sticking to Mono-Blue though (for now) and the idea to log my Cunning Wish grabs is a great one, so thanks.
Cheers
I always loved 3 wishes...i runned it in a full combo version but i missed the control part so much...
Why no hunting pack in a Ug version?
I was going back and forth between running 3 Tangle post-board and a split between 2 Tangle and 1 Hunting Pack. Either way it works well. Hunting Pack in the board gives you a better game 1 but ultimately you want to have an answer to their last combat phase that delays that combat phase by two turns, ie. the turn they attack and the following turn. Then you can go off in response to the next attack phase, or attempt to PtD/Impulse into yet another Tangle to buy yourself even more time. Tangle buys you more time for a low cost that allows you to cantrip and make more land drops. Hunting Pack is a win condition combined with a virtual Fog (because you block the lethal combat phase) but it doesn't stop some attack phases, ie. the ones where your opponent is playing Reanimator or has creatures with evasion. In short, Tangle just works more consistently and you don't have to reach for your kill immediately like you do with Hunting Pack.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
That decklist makes zero sense. You want to outrace aggro and you don't run 4 Tide main and 0 Remands. Running 4 Tides gives you way more t3 wins which is pretty huge when you don't play vs counters. Running Remands means that winning the die-roll means you are probably going to win the match.
Tangle is not even close to Hunting Pack. The only reason to splash a color right now in Solidarity is Hunting Pack. It amazing vs aggro, it is amazing vs aggro-control, and it is just a solid win-con vs any deck (combo, control, bullshitarchetypexyz).
Stroke of Genius over BSZ?
Trolls trolling trolls...
Vacrix,
I was quite shocked to read that decklist as well. Remand is by far the best counterspell for Solidarity.
Saying you are very consistently going off turn 4 while running merely 3 Tides made me giggle.
No offense but as you are saying yourself, you haven't updated your list in a while and believe me; playing that list won't get you top 8's in this meta.
Kanti...
4 Wish/3 Tide has been a playstyle for quite a long time... Why don't you do a little research about the deck instead of just playing the list in the opening post? I was the one of the first people to bring back the green splash after this deck stopped being played. I know how good Hunting Pack is and its NOT the only reason to splash green. Krosan Grip and Tangle are both excellent options, as is Autumn's Veil, an Orim's Chant that can be played like a Mindbreak Trap for G, only without the X>/=3 condition.
Running a 4 Wish build means that on turn 3 you can be wishing for High Tide so you can use it to go off on turn 4 (thats 7 virtual copies of High Tide, while you only run 4). When you can naturally draw your business spells (because you play 6 Meditate effects and 4 Cunning Wish, effectively 10 business, you should see one every 6 cards), then you can focus your Impulse effects (I run 7) on digging through the deck for Resets and/or High Tide.
Trying to rep turn 3 kills is just arrogant of you. The deck hardly ever gets turn 3 kills which is exactly why you ought to resign to that fact and improve the next best turn: turn 4. There was a discussion on exactly this concept many, many pages back if you care to do some reading.
Yes Remand is quite good, but more as a trick with Brainfreeze to get a swift kill without drawing too many cards. I choose to play Three Wishes in my metagame because it was aggro heavy at the time. I found that often my hand was cluttered with cards I needed for the end of my combo turn instead of cards I needed to GET to the end of my combo turn. Remand, FoI, and BF fell into that category of cards. I saw FoI as a 'win-more' outdated piece of tech, and Remand + BF was just the kill condition. Take more of those cards out and put in cards that allow you to start comboing. Once I started going off, it was pretty easy to win after a first successful Meditate, so I opted instead for longer spell chains where I was searching for the win instead of smaller spell chains that more consistently happen on turn 5 or 6 where you might have already been killed by aggro.
Will I play this list in the current metagame? Probably not... something I mentioned if you bothered to read what I wrote instead of just reading a list and juxtaposing it with what you're playing. I want to test Snapcaster and Snap, and I kinda miss Twincasting Meditates and Resets.
TL DR;
Try reading and then you won't look like an idiot when you call someone an idiot. I've been playing Solidarity for longer than you and I'm no troll.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
This list has 7 ways to get to High Tide by turn 4 and just as many ways to get there by cantrips. Chances of winning is very directly related to the amount of High Tides you draw, so I would agree with him here.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
l like the Twincast idea to go along with what was being said about 7 ways to hit a High Tide (I know I only have 6 ways; but I am working on that 4th Cunning Wish).
Anyway, I took out -1 Turnabout, -1 Brainfreeze and put in +2 Peer through Depths, and set and combo are actually working a little better. I have not run enough tests yet to see if the deck is where I want it; but it does feel better overall, and I appreciate all the suggestions and discussion.
PS, Meta can make or break any deck, so what works one day will not work the next.
I know it's been your play-style but that doesn't make it the right choice in an aggro-metagame. I also know that you are one of the few that suggested Pack (along with Bahamuth and Van Phanel) but that doesn't really mean much in regards to what we are talking about. And I also know about Tangle, Grip, and Veil! (Go figure, I run Grip in my side!). Veil sucks though as I'd almost always want to run Flusterstorm (It stops combo, counters, and discard and doesn't negate your own Remands).
I'm not "repping t3 kills". I'm simply pointing out that you are making the main-deck weaker to aggro-decks by running 4 Wish/3 Tide as you will almost never see a Tide in your opener. They do happen, however, and refutting that point is arrogant of you more than anything ;/.
Remand isn't really only there because it's synergy with BF. It has synergy with FoW, can counter your own cards, is a huge speed bump to many decks, and can Time Walk bigger creatures. It's sometimes dead vs super-aggresive aggro decks on the draw, but you aren't going to realistically beat those decks. It also sometimes also wins you the game versus those decks as speed is an issue, and as you said offers a swifter kill.
Your reason for cutting it was that you don't want dead cards pre-combo yet you run Three Wishes? I coudn't imagine a crappier card to have in hand pre-combo. It just doesn't make sense to say that you wan't to reduce that amount of useless cards pre-combo but then run these.
Once again, I don't care for how long you've been playing the deck. I've played this clunker for a few years myself but you don't see me going "Well you know that I've played the deck for longer than you, noob!". When you post a list with Stroke>BSZ after talking crap about other list it's hard to take you seriously. You suggested running Hunting Pack though, and have played the deck for longer than me, so I must be wrong though. BSZ is totally win-more. I would be more respectful in my posts if you defended your posts with logic rather than a false sense of reputation.
p.s: your head is still in your ass.
Edit: A decent idea might be to run 4 Wish, 1 Freeze, 2 PtD main-deck. This would allow you to get Forces early, and maybe allow you to combo out earlier on a little more easily. I'm still not convinced but it might be a decent route to go by.
Last edited by Kanti; 11-21-2011 at 01:51 PM.
I am still under the impression that Hunting Pack might be nice; but storming into a crap load of 4/4 beasts is not better than simply going for the win.
Anyway, I like the other items splashed with green; but not enough to go that route just yet.
Today vs some Zombie deck I went off for a mill of well over 140 cards to hammer the opponent on turn 4. Next game I did him with a simple Blue Son's Zenith for 50+ cards as he landed a Necropotence to offset his card draw -- oh well his loss.
Deck is a lot smother with more dig and little less business so thanks again. More test needed, more practice needed; but turn 4-5 is actually a reality for me now.
Thanks.
You don't need to see a Tide in your opener to beat aggro by turn 4; you need to find one. Running 4 Cunning Wish and a High Tide in the board ensures that you will be able to grab it on turn 3 and go off on turn 4 if you can't find one naturally with your cantrips. I don't see whats so hard to understand about this. Further, this is not even 'my' playstyle, someone else in the thread came up with it and I was not the only one to play a 4 Wish/3 Tide build.
Sorry but you are not making the deck any stronger by holding onto dreams of turn 3 wins. This point will not make sense to you until you can accept that a 4 Wish/3 Tide build makes Solidarity FAR more consistent on turn 4. Why? You have 7 virtual copies of High Tide; of course, you only have 7 if you consider that you will have your High Tide on turn 3 to set up for a turn 4 kill.
Remand is great as a virtual Time Walk, I'm well aware of all its interactions, and its use as a soft-counter to delay the game. I was referring to the fact that there are several phases to the combo itself:
Phase 0 - Set-up
This is where cantrips are played to find the golden ratio of [High Tide, Reset, Meditate]. You don't NEED this combination to go off but its the ideal hand you are trying to scuplt in addition to other cantrips.
Phase 1 - High Tide
If High Tide resolves then we are good to go. If not, a counterwar of sorts ensues.
Phase 2 - Meditates
The means by which we get enough card advantage to hit the 20 storm count. Now ultimately you also play cantrips and such in this phase but they are mostly to find Meditates so that you can gain card advantage and don't have to scramble with your mana and spells to get to a high enough storm count to get the kill.
Phase 3 - Kill
Either we play an arbitrary number of spells and then Remand our own Brainfreeze for the kill, or we play a natural Brainfreeze with storm 20. Then we Cunning Wish for a spell like Stroke/Words of Worship to make them draw a card.
My point was that Remand and Brainfreeze are cards that are relevant to Phase 3. The 4 Wish build makes it far easier to get to Phase 1 by turn 4 because you run MORE copies of High Tide; 7 is greater than 3. The Three Wishes functioned as a means by which to get the card advantage you need in order to have enough spells to get to phase 3. With a heavier business focus, and more Impulse effects, you can consistently dig into the deck for either Resets, High Tides, or Cunning Wishes. You aren't consistently getting to Phase 3 without some card advantage. I decided that I didn't want to be cantripping for 3 different combo pieces and limited that scope to 2 instead, at the expense of Remands strength in turn 0. The metagame didn't force me to play Remand so I didn't. I know how good it is and the current metagame isn't too good for Three Wishes. I would still play a 4 Wish/3 Tide list any day of the week.
Last edited by Vacrix; 11-22-2011 at 12:40 AM.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
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