I think I would much rather cut slither muse for PiF. Whats your take on that?
I think it's pretty ballsy, bordering on reckless, to run only two win conditions in a draw-dependent deck that only has 4 conditional tutors. I remember that when I was playing 2 Tendrils and 2 Belchers, I was still having a bit of trouble getting to my win conditions.Originally Posted by DerFern
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Could work, too. However, I thought about cutting 1 Culling the Weak for some time, now but in the end, I decided it was just too good with all your critters and especially with Slithermuse. And, which is more important imho ist the fact that you can easily go 1st turn IT into Muse to draw7. You only need 6mana available and IT in hand which is quite common. Even though you will not have any floating mana after Muses trigger, off of those seven cards should always be an IMS. PiF on the other hand needs 7mana just to work, one of which must be red, and IT in hand. I think there is a crucial difference in this single mana requirement so I would NOT cut Slithermuse right now.
As I already said before: I did not get beyond goldfishing this list. However, in those hours and hours (seriously, goldfishing PSI is like playing your most favorit video game) I never had a problem finding my winconditions. PiF serves this purpose quite good. Any IT in your yard is going to be a demonic tutor, Manamorphose is just a Street Wraith for 0 life and seriously, if we start at 20 life we can cast 4 Bargains/Contracts which is 16cards, too. So in the end, with our starting hand, Land Grants and Pacts we´ll have half of our library drawn easily. Even though I don´t have actual prove of it, but I guess that there will always be either a "conditional tutor" or some random shenanigans like Pact-Witness-IT available.
I just realized Tukatongue Thallid is really fucking good with Noxious Revival --> Culling the Weak. If we run Thallid as one of the Pactable creatures then we are insured acceleration on the top of our deck because of Revival, not to mention cantrips like MM and Probe let us get it back right away. Also, Noxious Revival can grab LED a second time making it less risky to break a LED with a D4 after emptying your whole hand of acceleration, especially with the Ewit line of play to keep the spell chain going. Also, I'm thinking that IGG/Past in Flames might be better than Slithermuse considering Thallid because it allows us to play hands using Culling the Weak as an acceleration spell on the part of the chain that follows IGG/PIF and that isn't possible with the other Pactable creatures, which means IGG/PIF becomes a far more exciting option.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Have you tested Noxious Revival? I had it in the deck as a one-of for some time and never was happy to draw it :/ .
As for Thallid - what to cut for it? I am already playing both Odious Trow and Wild Cantor and have Pacted for both of them on numerous occasions - and do not remember a moment when I needed to get two creatures. I would consider that green creature that can be played for free before Thallid.
Also, Slithermuse is IMO one if the best first turn spells - you get to refill your hand and start again with a high stormcount in most cases.
I've been testing a list with more lands than usual. 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Glimmervoid, and 4 Vault of Whispers. It felt like I was playing TES, so I'm changing it up. I gathered the cards to play the Pact version, but I remember not liking it. Pact feels clunky.
Back to artifacts. Although, I'll have 4 Badlands MD as initial B/R mana sources that help Belcher as a win condition.
Lotus Blooms out of the board. Having trouble finding another SB card that will help most against blue/hate while remaining useful against other decks. I believe cards that help our plan are superior to cards that stop them from stopping our plan.
Last edited by DarthVicious; 11-05-2011 at 11:08 AM.
I'm working on a new SI list, for those interested. Lately my kill conditions have been split between Belcher (3) and Tendrils (2). I'm trying to see if Doomsday yields a better version of the deck. The rational behind this is that not only can we run land again, but we can run SDT. Often SI and other glass house combo decks are criticized for being a do-or-die play style. I know theresurrection played SDT in his list a while back, so I'm going to try it now. So far its been alright. I've cast it a few times in order to get a D4 off the top to finish a DD pile. The theory, though, is that if our first spell is countered a perpetual mana source and SDT becomes a huge threat as it allows to do some sculpting without really slowing down all that much. The perpetual resource allows us to manipulate the top of the deck to find the acceleration piece or business spell we need to explode again, AND SDT can grab that card. Gitixian Probe has also been excellent. Even with hands that don't require DD it allows you to feel comfortable about when to play Summoner's Pact.
DD piles I've been using are:
1. Probe in hand, and BBB floating:
Cruel Bargain, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony
2. SDT in play and BBB floating:
Cruel Bargain, Gitixian Probe, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Tendrils of Agony
Those are the only two I've needed to craft so far. If anyone has any ideas on piles, please share.
DDSI
Business - 16
2 Doomsday
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
Cantrip - 6
4 Gitixian Probe
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Mana: 38
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
I'm in the infant stages of the deck, still trying to get DD and the D4 engine to synthesize nicely. So far its actually been working fairly well. Its not always the kill but its one mana cheaper than the Belcher kill, we can run the Emrakul SB plan to beat Counterbalance, and its a good excuse to run SDT and Gitixian Probe, both excellent cards.
My initial thoughts are:
- Summoner's Pact has in the longer spell chains stopped me from playing a pass the turn pile. It works well with SDT though if you are sitting on an assload of mana.
- I like Wild Cantor a lot. Its enabled a lot of hands I wouldn't have been able to win otherwise. I haven't missed Odious Trow yet and have preferred the starting black.
Just to share a few hands:
Petal, Dark Ritual, ESG, SDT, LED, DD, break LED discarding IT, pile --> [IC, Probe, LED, LED, ToA], SDT on top for IC, then use BBB to IC for SDT, Probe, LED, LED, then LED, LED, and Probe breaking LED x2 for BBBBBB into ToA.
Petal, DR, DR, Pact --> Dryad Arbor, Culling the Weak, (holding Gitixian Probe), DD --> IC, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, ToA
I'll be testing throughout the week. If anyone has ideas on for piles please let me know as I'm not an experienced DD player.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Interesting... I like the recipe. Let me know how it comes out of the oven.
@ Vacrix
2-3 Brainstorm?
I actually dropped Doomsday because you really need to have a free cantrip in hand to make it work. I found that Doomsday works but it wasn't any better than the other business spells available. So I preferred to test Past in Flames because I hadn't yet explored the card.
Holy shit its good. I'm currently testing this list:
Pact SI
Business -
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
Cantrip -
4 Gitixian Probe
1 Sensei's Diving Top
Mana -
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Tinderwall
3 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
Tinderwall is usually played like this:
Pact --> Tinderwall, ESG for G, Tinderwall --> RR
So it essentially colorfixes you RR for what would otherwise be GG. I usually make this play to flashback the entire graveyard with Past in Flames. Its absolutely disgusting in SI because the deck is so draw heavy. If you just get it and another business spell + LED, you win. LED can trigger the entire graveyard to give you a **** storm of mana, and with Probes, and Pacts filling up the graveyard quickly, you'll be sure to get threshold for Cabal Ritual.
Unlike other decks running PIF, you can actually replay IMS's, Summoner's Pact, from the yard to create the initial black source, via the play:
Pact --> Wild Cantor, Pact --> ESG
Both Slithermuse and Past in Flames are cards you don't mind seeing in your opening 7. Past in Flames, however, is only good in the opening hand if you have another business spell to accompany it, preferably a D4.
I'm still testing this list, but so far it looks like a much better PSI list than I was running before.
@ Darth
I think Past in Flames testing will prove more lucrative.
@the resurrection
I have wanted to play Brainstorm for some time but I think that SDT is better because its fantastic with LED. Can you share a few sample hands that you've played in which Brainstorm has been relevant? I want to see how you've been applying the card.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Agreed. I've only goldfished with it, but it's a mean nasty card. One of the few storm engines you don't mind drawing. My list has enough business in it to forego Doomsday anyway.
Petal,Draw4,Brainstorm,Tendrils,LED,IT,Fetch/(3cards: DR,CtW,pact).I have wanted to play Brainstorm for some time but I think that SDT is better because its fantastic with LED. Can you share a few sample hands that you've played in which Brainstorm has been relevant? I want to see how you've been applying the card.
I had a lot of those hands with a lot of business spells or ritual hands. In our example SDT would be simply too expensive..."CC2" vs.CC1. The second point is that we can shuffle the dead Tendrils (or Witness/IGG/2nd. Fetch/3rd CtW...) away. The best point is that we can play a single Tendrils maindeck without commiting suicide. I play a lot of blue decks including Brainstorm and never felt it overpowered, but here in SI it's broken because of pact (maybe I am just hyping...;), on the other hand we can just play 2-3 copies of Brainstorm, because it costs U. I play 3 BS (and one SDT) with 4 Fetch/Usea/Arbor and a single mox diamond.
I need to pick up some copies of Manamorphose and then I'll test Brainstorm. I don't feel like I could play it effectively, consistently without more color fixers. Whats your current list look like?
I did some testing with Past in Flames. It plays nicely. Its kinda sick when your D4 yields something like:
Past in Flames, LED x2, ToA
No mana floating? No problem. Break LED's discarding everything adding RRRBBB, play PIF, and then flashback a few rituals your yard.
I also did some testing with 2 Slithermuse maindeck. I might do it again in the future when I have a playset of Manamorphose again.
I've come to the conclusion that Gitixian Probe is probably better than Manamorphose in the stock PSI list with Odious Trow and Eternal Witness because you rarely need to color fix; however, in lists that run Past in Flames, Empty the Warrens, and extra copies of Slithermuse, you ought to play Manamorphose instead of Probe.
Aside, I'm thinking about testing a list that plays Recross the Paths. Its a fantastic green Doomsday that easy quite easy to play considering it only costs 2G. The only part thats difficult part is do you cut lands out of the deck completely or do you just play 1 Dryad Arbor and play more Wild Cantors and/or Tinder Walls? Tinderwalls make me think of switching from IT to BW and playing 4 Manamorphose. Land Grant could replace SSG. I'm a little worried about not having enough IMS in black to start the spell chain but that will all make itself apparent in testing.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
I goldfished the PiF PSI list Vacrix posted with 3 probes, no manamorphose, e. witness, and trow and it is SICK. I missed eternal witness one time when my D4 yielded a bayou, LED, ritual, and summoner's pact with 2 black floating so I couldn't continue since pact wasn't a business spell but other than that I pulled off lots of turn 1 wins on the draw and combo'ed with ease on turn 2 on the draw again as well. Also fired off a tendrils for almost 70 damage via PiF awesomeness. I really like PiF in here. The card is absolutely devastating whenever it resolves and the LED interaction is so awesome it isn't even funny how broken LED is with PiF despite not being able to recur if you draw 2 LED's + PiF you usually just win assuming you have at least 2 rituals in the yard if not more. Sensei's top as a one of was interesting although I never really needed it when I cast the card since I already had infinite mana and didn't really need anything else. I can see where it shines though what with the pact interaction and practically being a demonic tutor for 2 in this deck.
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Allright, ive also been testing PiF and it has been awesome. The list I'm using:
8 draw 4
4 mox
4 led
4 culling
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 pact
4 land grant
1 slithermuse
1 PiF
2 ToA
1 Belcher
1 bayou
1 dryad arbor
1 witness
1 odious trow
3 gytaxian probe
4 infernal tutor
4 ESG
4 Petal
Stuff I am not sure about yet:
2 PiF or 2 Tendrils. How do you guys experienced this?
The choice of creatures: Witness and Trow, or Wild cantor? Maybe Tukatongue thallid?
Then: Probe or Manamorphose... Both have some nice pro's and con's. Morphose turns your green ESG mana into black, however if you play Wildcantor you can also turn Pacts into B but then you will have the problem that your Culling becomes kinda useless in the graveyard. Plus with morphose you are able to play other kill-cons from the sideboard like empty the warrens which dodges leyline. Also playing 2 probes (1 from hand, 1 from grave) does hurt you for 4, which can be the difference between playing another d4 or not. So for now I think ill stick with Morphose. Also when you probe the second time might its probably not as useful as when you play manamorphose for the second time.
Im probably stick with witness and trow, 3 manamorphose and 2 PiF,1 ToA for testing atm! Also I don't really see the advantage of 1 SDT, in the matches where its good you want to see it early in the game so 1 seems kinda shady right?
For the sideboard:
We want empty the warrens? Seems better then Claim or something vs Leyline.
I'm a believe in 2 PiF 1 Tendrils despite not being able to raw draw it as easily sometimes I open with the card in my hand and I absolutely despise it.
I'm going to try cutting charbelcher from the MD though and putting the 2nd tendrils in its place; tendrils is generally better than charbelcher in my experience and at least it can imprint on chrome mox. I'm almost never happy when I draw belcher and I rarely win with it because I never have enough mana to tutor for it and activate it since that costs a whopping 9 mana total. The only real good part about belcher is that you can cast it and pass the turn if you haven't played a pact to try to draw into mana to fire it off but this situation rarely occurs.
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Currently Playing:
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I actually thought about this too, you could maybe even play grapeshot just for lolz. No now back to being serious: Do you think keeping charbelcher in the deck just for the sideboard? Or are we steadily moving towards a list that abandones belcher and the 1 land idea, for a PiF inspired SI list?
For quite a while I was oscillating between a 3 Belcher, 2 ToA, and 4 Belcher 1 ToA. I wouldn't say that the Belcher kill is rare in such lists but its happens more infrequently in lists that play only one. It helps you more effectively play the post-board plan against control, playing disruption and baiting with D4's until you can lay down a Belcher. The more Tendril's you play, the fewer Belchers you tend to play, which means you have to play a different post-board plan because you won't have Belcher as consistently. I opted to play more Belcher's MD that way I could play more sideboard material relevant to the control matchup. Its far easier to get a kill against control when you have LED sitting around because you aren't dumping everything into IT, and your opponent has forced 2 D4's, and you are sitting on something like Carpet, Mox, Ritual --> Belcher.
The reason this post-board plan works well is because Belcher allows you to get a kill independent of a 9+ storm count. We have to keep in mind that post-board, Past in Flames will be contributing to a storm based kill. I like the idea of baiting with D4's into a storm based kill with Past in Flames because the Belcher kill requires 7 mana, but it can be split over the course of 2 turns (strong with Carpet), but Past in flames requires 5 mana and we can use all of the cards we baited with, including disruption, without exposing ourselves to the opponents entire graveyard like we would if PIF were IGG instead. Further, its an engine that we can flashback so if it does get countered, a perpetual resource like Carpet or even LED's in this case would allow us to essentially go off from the yard.
I think cutting 1 Belcher for a 2 ToA, 2 PIF, 1 Muse, config will play well. We have to keep in mind the post-board plan though.
Also, I played Tinderwall briefly as a Pactable and it was pretty sick. It turns Pact/ESG x2 from GG into RR, unlike with Cantor which turns Pact/ESG x2 into one mana of any color. Its also randomly a Rite of Flame if you are already holding it in hand.
I'm also fairly over trying to get SDT to work. It was really sick in a few hands but that slot just functions better as something else.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Yeah the SDT could be a part of a postboard plan because against control you tend to have longer games postboard and seeing the top 3 every turn is the nuts. But I agree with the belcher and tendrils philosophy and how it affects the SB; either you go all tendrils or all belcher postboard and while each has its merits I like tendrils more for its synergy with PiF is insane.
I'm probably going to cut the miser's top in the main for either an odious trow or eternal witness; I've missed witness in my goldfishing with Vacrix's last list that he posted and Sometimes I really want trow because I need an IMS that produces black, which trow is with chrome. But on the flipside adding e. witness increases the volume of business spells, something I've had minor problems with when I burn a D4 to find business only to find boatloads of mana and summoner's pact(s). I'm leaning towards trow overall though because he also can serve as culling the weak fodder in a pinch to make a pseudo dark ritual because as we all know dark ritual is the best card in the deck besides LED of course.
Grapeshot seems winmore. But we already knew that lol. If you run burning wish you can run grapeshot but only if you run burning wish lol.
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Currently Playing:
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I'm more of a fan of Belcher--I don't know if it was just the way things were, but when I was playing this deck more often, I was finding that every time I didn't kill on turn one, what would happen would be that I would have an almost 100% chance of killing with a Charbelcher on turn two. I'll probably play the second Belcher over Sensei's Divining Top for that reason. I'm about to test it out now.
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