[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[dillonkbase]

Liam: If you were going to play TNT tomorrow, would you be on the Probe/Therapy plan? Why or why not?

I think the more important question is TNT vs ANT, and if your playing arbor, I assume you are sideboard a bayou or trop and some swarms? Seems like a big shift, Ari is supporting UBw, Liam just played UBr--or TNT with burning wish and past in flames, and is now suggesting UBg, with an arbor to make a better therapy/probe package?

Their is a lot of exploration in the storm decks in response to the influx of cards from innistrad, and the banning of misstep. and I think we all are wondering how this shakes out and how the formats best pilots see these choices(at least that's what I wonder about).

[lorddotm]

In TNT, which cannot flashback Therapy, I wouldn't play it. Like I said though, it is really rough, and I probably need to find room for two more lands.

[xfxf]

Not directly related to TNT but a question about Ad Nauseam variants in general..If you are running the playset of Gitaxian Probes isn't Cabal Therapy strictly better then Thoughtseize even if you don't run Arbor. You are already peeking at your oppponent's hand and you're not suffering from the lifeloss. UB ANT isn't as strong as TES while going the Ad Nauseam route, lifeloss is more important and it's easier to fizzle with lower life.

[GexxX]

Well... In ANT Probe looks fine on paper, but after testing it I've found the Information to be not that useful. The situations that occur are:

a) You peek and see zero that matters to you, but you can't win this turn, unfortunately.
Then when you do go off and saw your opp plays blue, for instance, he counters your first ritual which you needed to hit critical mana and continues pressure so you AN route get's less attractive.
b) You peek and see one Disruption spell that matters to you, which you could've also taken with a duress or thoughseize. It's still +1 Storm, but that's about it.
c) You see multiple cards that matter, but you cen't therapy all of them. Still you lost 2 life. AN gets worse.
d) Therapy hits all of their disruption -> Path is clear. (happens about 5-10% of the matches)

(Note: There might be some other situations that occur, but that's simply the most basic stuff)

In one of the four scenarios Probe was good. Personally I'd just play Chants and ignore whatever they can do. It's also way better with IGG and that's worth a lot if you ask me. Although chants are a pain in some matchups when discard-spells are king, but right now I feel a mix of duress + Chants is the way to go.
Chants are quite limited to UB ANT and TES, but TNT has issues with it's slots as Liam allready said.

[xfxf]

I'm currently trying the build I saw from the Barcelona tournament. I'll paste the list so it can give a clearer idea about the context I'm evaluating Therapy in.

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion´s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Thoughtseize/Therapy
4 Duress

4 Infernal Tutor

1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

About the cases you listed:

a) You peek and see zero that matters to you, but you can't win this turn, unfortunately.
Then when you do go off and saw your opp plays blue, for instance, he counters your first ritual which you needed to hit critical mana and continues pressure so you AN route get's less attractive.

In this case yes, if I spent my Probe in an earlier turn and left with Therapy when I'm going off I'd rather have Thoughtseize so that I can eliminate the counter with confidence.

b) You peek and see one Disruption spell that matters to you, which you could've also taken with a duress or thoughseize. It's still +1 Storm, but that's about it.

Neutral case.

c) You see multiple cards that matter, but you cen't therapy all of them. Still you lost 2 life. AN gets worse.

I'd say this one favors the Probe/Therapy couple slightly.
If I can't take away all the threats I'm down 2 life and looking desperate anyways after Thoughtseize.
If I used Probe I'm down two life (maybe paid U and not down 2 life), felt desperate but drew a card.
If I gambled and used Therapy blindly I'm down 0 life, looking desperate.
If I Probed and holding Therapy (instead of Thoughtseize) at least I won't lose any more life when snatching their threats away one by one.

d) Therapy hits all of their disruption -> Path is clear. (happens about 5-10% of the matches)

Favors Therapy as you mentioned.

Thoughtseize is better when I need a one card solution to see their hand a snatch a threat "now", that's a given.

I also think that Orim's Chant is a better suppliment to Duress but since I splashed red for PiF splashing white would make it harder o get all the right colors at the right time. I think at this point discussion boils down to whether PiF is more important or Chant. I'll try to summarise my comparison.

Red splah for PiF/No IGG: You don't have protection of Chant but you don't give them their threats back with IGG so the risk is remedied to an extent. Plus PiF gives you more explosive options.
White splash for Chant: After Chant you can IGG safely without worrying about their recurring counters. But IGG is less explosive than PiF from an aggressive point of view. However Chant has multiple uses where it can buy you turns or time-walk opponents.

[GexxX]

I think you're right. It's a matter of preference and I have not liked PiF much after testing for a while. Since most other people like it I might have to give it another shot, but I'm trying to get good with Reanimator at the moment until I can finally grap some Grim Tutors. Their price increased a little and I just can't ignore feeling they'll be reprinted in a little while.
Back to the point. For me IGG has allways been the best strategy to win against nonblue decks like Maverick. PiF does pretty much the same thing in those matchups, but killing in the first two turns seems best against GSZ into Hatebear. In those early turns LED mana missing after PiF made a huge difference in testing. That's a reason I stuck to the plan.
If you can handle PiF well enough you propably don't have that problem, but I seem to fail all the time. ;)

regards

[Fatal]

Maybe just add IGG on SB and PiF MD ?

[Azdraël]

PiF is just bunkers against any Tempo/Control decks where Igg kinda desperatly sucked. And vs aggro it's almost all the more the same. Really, give it a go, try it out!

[Silent Requiem]

I'm playing UB ANT (with a G splash in the sideboard), and I have a question about sideboarding against Maverick.

Now, game 1 is a bit of a toss-up, because I have no maindeck answer to Teag, so if they have a fast hand and put me on ANT they can race me by dropping a T2 Teag. This means I really want to make sure I can win games 2 & 3. Trouble is, Maverick typically boards in around 10 cards against us. After boarding, I'll have to face some combination of Mindbreak Trap, Teag, Mindcensor, Surgical Extraction and Cannonist.

So, what should I be boarding in? And what should I be boarding out? Mindbreak Trap and Extraction make me want to keep my discard effects (which also hit GSZ), but I clearly need the ability to deal with hatebears. Are Slaughter Pact/Chain of Vapor enough when Mother of Runes is also present, or should I be trying something like Infest or Virtue's Ruin?

Strangely, is Xantid Swarm a good card to board in? It shuts down their Traps and (to an extent) Extactions, allowing me to focus on the hatebears. Extras can chump block a Knight, or whatnot.

[JamieW89]

I'm playing UB ANT (with a G splash in the sideboard), and I have a question about sideboarding against Maverick.

Now, game 1 is a bit of a toss-up, because I have no maindeck answer to Teag, so if they have a fast hand and put me on ANT they can race me by dropping a T2 Teag. This means I really want to make sure I can win games 2 & 3. Trouble is, Maverick typically boards in around 10 cards against us. After boarding, I'll have to face some combination of Mindbreak Trap, Teag, Mindcensor, Surgical Extraction and Cannonist.

So, what should I be boarding in? And what should I be boarding out? Mindbreak Trap and Extraction make me want to keep my discard effects (which also hit GSZ), but I clearly need the ability to deal with hatebears. Are Slaughter Pact/Chain of Vapor enough when Mother of Runes is also present, or should I be trying something like Infest or Virtue's Ruin?

Strangely, is Xantid Swarm a good card to board in? It shuts down their Traps and (to an extent) Extactions, allowing me to focus on the hatebears. Extras can chump block a Knight, or whatnot.

If you play Grim Tutors you could play a single Virtue's Ruin to tutor or mise I suppose. I board 2 Path to Exile, 3 Chain of Vapor, 1 Slaughter Pact and board out my 2 duress, 2-3 chants and some probes leaving me with 2 or 3 chants still to play around any possible traps/extractions and timewalk when needed. Paths are pretty good for dealing with any of hatebears/mother even if you can't go off yet. I don't think I've lost a tournament match against Maverick yet, but the matchup should be about 70-30 for us. I don't think I'd board in Swarm, even if I didn't play white.

Something I did on MTGO for a bit was board in a second Ad Nauseam (which I also had for discard matchups). All the maverick decks seemed to play Aven Mindcensor and Ad Nauseam is an out to the bird with mana open. That said, it's still better to just Chant, then bounce the bird and win through IGG (or PiF), but you don't run white.

Another option is Dread of Night. I learned about this card when Fabian Görtzen named it against me with Nevermore (which ended up costing him the match) to protect his hateboard. But I'm not sure if I like it that much.

If Maverick is a very large part of the meta you might want to consider playing with Burning Wish and/or Doomsday (with a CoV main). Maybe even a single CoV with 2 Grim Tutors isn't a bad idea. At the worst it produces storm.

[Azdraël]

1) Virtue's ruin is quite good, I've been always playing it cuz g2/g3 can be quite tough with T1: MoR, T2: hatebears.

2) You shouldn't worry about extirpate effect.

3) I'd like to say, if they board-in Trap, they are not worth playing against. Most good players do not play this shit but combination of leyline + more hateabears + extirpate effect is more relevant in any match-ups. Normally, you side-out your Duress (keep your thoughtseize/cabal) and side-in CoV/Pact/Echoing Truth/Disfigure/Deathmark/whatever, alternating blue/black removal for MoR's protection on hatebears and Leyline. Keep going this way. Xantid is not really a good idea.

PS: just saw Dread of night. This is a bit cocky. It only kills MoR.

my 2 cents

[mojoiskewl]

Since we dont have a TNT thread I guess I'll post it here.

How do I beat slow-ass counterbalance variants, the one with like maindeck counterspells and SFMs and Snapcasters as the only wincons? That deck is just damn annoying, do I just hope to just never get paired up against it during tournaments? Its a thing here in my meta. Do I revert back to TES? Or just give it up and play something derpy like dredge?

For reference my build is Liam Kane's SCG LA list with -1 Wipe, +1 Empty

[joemauer]

Since we dont have a TNT thread I guess I'll post it here.

How do I beat slow-ass counterbalance variants, the one with like maindeck counterspells and SFMs and Snapcasters as the only wincons? That deck is just damn annoying, do I just hope to just never get paired up against it during tournaments? Its a thing here in my meta. Do I revert back to TES? Or just give it up and play something derpy like dredge?

For reference my build is Liam Kane's SCG LA list with -1 Wipe, +1 Empty

Don't take out wipe away. It is the best card against the card counterbalance.

[death]

Those games against control hinges on the number of times you rip their hand with discard spells.

With 9-10 discard effects, you'd draw them much often and earlier. Keep a hand with more disruption than combo since there's a good chance you'd draw into combo pieces as the match progresses, first deal with counters/counterbalance.

[Silent Requiem]

It seems to a bit silly to post about a small tournament in a DTB thread, but I'm looking for advice (in a general sense) and some of the testing might be relevant for people considering their own builds.

So I played in a local tournament. My 75 was:

4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

10 Fetchlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island

(Sideboard)

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Deathmark (could not get Slaughter Pacts in time)
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Cabal Therapy

Round 1 - Merfolk

Game 1: He kept his initial hand, while I mulled to six to because my first grip had only one land.

He plays an Island, followed by an Aether Vial. He then Dazes my turn one Ponder, replaying the Island on his second turn. This forces me to play my Underground Sea as my second land so I can Duress. I see FoW, which I take.

He then drops a Wasteland, and destroys my Underground Sea. On my turn I cast Dark Ritual off Lotus Petal, and then play LED. He must have topdecked FoW, because he Forces the Diamond - I think he wanted to stop me getting Hellbent and worried that I might have another Duress after getting BBB from the DR. However, the rest of my hand is all rituals, and I get Grim Tutor into Ad Nauseam for a win.

Game 2: I had intentionally left the Xantid Swarms out of the sideboard - I did not like running the Tropical in the main (although I suppose I could keep it, or a Forest, in the side). Instead, I just brought in one more Therapy, and took out one Probe. I love having loads of discard, and wonder if it would be worth including a couple of Seizes to board in.

This game started with similar plays to game 1. On about turn 2, I made a blind Therapy naming Force of Will, but his only relevant card is Flusterstorm. I play out my artifacts, and then my rituals. Grim Tutor takes the inevitable hit. On my next turn I play the Past in Flames I had in my hand from my artifact mana/lands, and flashback my rituals and Grim Tutor for the win.

Round 2 - Merfolk

Game 1: He keeps an aggressive hand with light disruption. Cabal Therapy takes FoW, however, and I play around Daze. Ad Nauseam was not an option, but Past in Flames gets me there.

Game 2: He boards in Relic of Progenitus and plays it on turn one. He then uses it to keep me off Threshold, and it obviously shuts of a PiF play.

His hand is slow, beating on me with a single Silvergill while trying to bring an Aether Vial up to speed for the four 3-mana lords in his hand. My discard clears the way, and although PiF is clearly cut off by the Relic, I have enough life to Ad Nauseam successfully.

Round 3 - Deadguy Ale

Game 1: He attacks me with discard, but that's a really bad play against PiF. I play my artifacts early and hide a Tutor with Brainstorm. The following turn I play what's left in my hand and Tutor for a massive Past in Flames.

Game 2: I was not really sure how he would board against me, so I sided out some discard and brought in some bounce for hatebears/artifacts. I also sided in an Empty the Warrens because discard plus a possible Extirpate on Tendrils could be nasty.

As it happens, he has opted to side in Bob and swamp me with even more discard. It doesn't help, though, because the turn he played Bob was a turn he was not disrupting me, and that's all I needed.

Round 4 - ID with Maverick into top 8

Round 5 - Reanimator

Game 1: I expect to lose this game, and I do. He turn 1 Entombs and my Duress sees 4 two-mana reanimate spells, a Brainstorm (he had fetched Underground Sea) and no land. I take the Brainstorm and hope he does not top-deck a land. He does.

Game 2: I side in four Leylines over my Probes and a Therapy. I also want some bounce in case he resolves a Show and Tell, but I feel there is a limit to what I can board in without slowing the deck too much. If I'd been thinking, I would have sided out Ad Nauseam, because I certainly would not have been able to cast that with the Leylines in the deck.

I find Leyline in my opening hand, which is decent overall. I once he has two lands in play I Therapy for Show and Tell, which hits. Although I draw nothing but gas for a couple of turns, he can't find an answer before I am able to go off.

Game 3: This starts in a similar way to game 2. I am sitting behind a Leyline, and have the win in hand; I just need to top-deck into anything that produces mana. Instead, I top-deck Tendrils.

I pass the turn, ready to go off in my next step; he only has two lands out this turn so there will be no Show and Tell. Instead, he Duresses, taking Tendrils. Then he Extirpates. Ugh!

I had considered that play from Deadguy, but for some reason it had not occurred to me that Reanimator would play GY hate.

Final finish - first place in the swiss, 5th overall.


Comments and Questions:

One thing I struggled with was what to board out. Probe is obviously the weakest cantrip, but removing it also makes Therapy much worse. Anyone have any suggestions?

Also, how much can you safely board in? At what point does the deck just stop functioning properly?

I really like the mana-base; all of my matches in the swiss rounds were against decks packing Wasteland, and being able to accrue lands without losing them was absolutely fantastic.

I've been getting some flack from local storm players for running a) ANT over TES, b) discard over chants, and c) Therapy over Thoughtseize. However, I was really happy with the Probe/Therapy synergy, and there were a few times where I flashed back some Therapies off PiF to generate storm - something I could not have done if they had been Thoughtseize.

On the other hand, there were no truly broken plays either. I suppose that if my Therapy had been a Thoughtseize, I would have been able to take the Flusterstorm rather than play around in round one, game two.

Clearly, the 4th place list at Amsterdam did well with Probe/Therapy, but any comments about one vs the other are welcomed.

Equally, comments generally are appreciated; I'm new to this deck and I'm glad for any pointers.

[thefringthing]

I've been back on the Thoughtseize side for a little while. I like being able to take hatebears away from Maverick, Zoo, and Affinity on turn one in post-board games. These are the positive matchups, but having to jump through hoops to deal with a hatebear means using resources and losing life to their attacks. I have not yet tried any build that can flash the Therapies back.

[lorddotm]

Since we dont have a TNT thread I guess I'll post it here.

How do I beat slow-ass counterbalance variants, the one with like maindeck counterspells and SFMs and Snapcasters as the only wincons? That deck is just damn annoying, do I just hope to just never get paired up against it during tournaments? Its a thing here in my meta. Do I revert back to TES? Or just give it up and play something derpy like dredge?

For reference my build is Liam Kane's SCG LA list with -1 Wipe, +1 Empty

Bobbing and weaving is my firs strategy. The second one is to not play around Force as often, especially if I think they have Counterbalance. The third is to slip a card out of their board. That one is a little shady, I do admit.

[laststepdown]

PS: just saw Dread of night. This is a bit cocky. It only kills MoR.

How does Dread of Night not kill Aven Mindsensor?

[Azdraël]

How does Dread of Night not kill Aven Mindsensor?

I should have written: 'PS: just saw Dread of night. This is a bit cocky. It only kills relevant threats like MoR's protecting a hatebear'.
It's not played everywhere and any good storm players dont give a damn about it.

[mojoiskewl]

The third is to slip a card out of their board. That one is a little shady, I do admit.

I see... <rubs palms>