Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

[SpikeyMikey]

Given that those highly predictable decks make up an ever-increasing percentage of the top tables, verging on 70+%, and still outperform themselves, this seems like an optimistic expectation.

Hulk-Flash builds that won on turn 0 were garbage btw and could never manage anywhere near 50% but that's neither here nor there.

I'd have to disagree. Hulk-Flash builds that were Legacy legal that won on turn 0 were too inconsistent. Once you started throwing Pacts into the mix, it got a lot better. I still wouldn't say it would be anywhere near 50% (probably closer to 30%). Testing it with Pacts reminded me of Dragon in T1 before they restricted Entomb.

[paeng4983]

No, not Brainstorm pls.

[Raider Bob]

No, because I have never scooped to someone casting Brainstorm.

[Zilla]

The point is that what is meant by "diversity" differs. Vintage might look diverse to Vintage players, but most other people disagree. Clearly some people think a format full of decks that all run Brainstorm + Force can be diverse; I don't really agree with that either, especially when they're all just basically starting to look like Thresh.

I'll grant you that BUG Control looks like Team America looks a little like RUG Tempo looks like Next Level Thresh, sure. But Zoo doesn't look like Thresh, and neither does Reanimator or Maverick or Merfolk or Dredge or ANT or even UW Stoneblade.

The format has a very high amount of diverse tier 1 decks right now, many of which do not resemble Thresh at all. Granted, a lot of winning decks played in recent SCG tournaments look like Thresh, but again, there's no compelling evidence to suggest that this is anything other than a trend like any other, and one which will naturally self correct over time.

Until the format is generally unfun to play, displays a great lack of diversity, or requires very little skill to play, why are we discussing bans on anything at all?

[sligh16]

No, because I have never scooped to someone casting Brainstorm.

The biggest lie that Brainstorm is selling the players is that he doesn't win the game.

[Zilla]

The biggest lie that Brainstorm is selling the players is that he doesn't win the game.

No one ever suggested that Brainstorm doesn't help win the game, but it is not, in and of itself, a threat or even an answer. A single Stifle or Wasteland or Hymn can singlehandedly win some games, but Brainstorm on its own never ever has. Brainstorm is only as strong as the other cards in your deck.

What Raider Bob said is neither incorrect nor dishonest in the slightest; no one has ever scooped to a Brainstorm.

[thefringthing]

It wins you the game sometimes when you have Lab Man in play...

[Tao]

No one ever suggested that Brainstorm doesn't help win the game, but it is not, in and of itself, a threat or even an answer. A single Stifle or Wasteland or Hymn can singlehandedly win some games, but Brainstorm on its own never ever has. Brainstorm is only as strong as the other cards in your deck.

What Raider Bob said is neither incorrect nor dishonest in the slightest; no one has ever scooped to a Brainstorm.

Great. So let's unban the five Beta Moxes, Recall and Black Lotus, too. They also only help win the game, but they are not, in and of theirselves, a threat or even an answer.
Or - let's not do that and look at the card's power level and impact on the format instead. What Raider Bob has said might have not been dishonest or incorrect, but it certainly was completely irrelevant.

[TRS-Jo]

Great. So let's unban the five Beta Moxes, Recall and Black Lotus, too. They also only help win the game, but they are not, in and of theirselves, a threat or even an answer.
Or - let's not do that and look at the card's power level and impact on the format instead. What Raider Bob has said might have not been dishonest or incorrect, but it certainly was completely irrelevant.

Stop being ridiculous!

Moxes and Lotus are mana accelerants. Brainstorm is not.

Ancestral Recall indeed wins you games. Brainstorm does not.

Your argument is not well thought through. It´s quite relevant if a card wins games. It´s part of its power level.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What on Earth do you mean by saying that Ancestral Recall wins games, and Brainstorm doesn't?

[Artowis]

Stop being ridiculous!

Moxes and Lotus are mana accelerants. Brainstorm is not.

Ancestral Recall indeed wins you games. Brainstorm does not.

Your argument is not well thought through. It´s quite relevant if a card wins games. It´s part of its power level.

Hint: Vintage players used to refer to Brainstorm as the Ancestral nobody knew to counter.

[TRS-Jo]

Ancestral Recall creates Card Advantage. Brainstorm does not create Card Advantage.

So regarding the ability to win:
Ancestral Recall is like the size of the moon
Brainstorm is like the size of an elephant

So if we look at it in this scale, then the moon is huge, elephants are not huge.
Therefore I say Ancestral Recall wins games, Brainstorm does not.

I do not say that there are no scenarios where Brainstorm can be the card that decides whether to win or lose a game. Many unbanned cards can take that role. But in comparison to cards that really win you the game and do this quite regularly, Brainstorm does not.

@Artowis: What´s the point of your post? In a vast majority of cases Brainstorm isn´t worth a Force of Will or Mana Drain (but maybe a Misstep or a Flusterstorm, if you consider these counterspells post-Brainstorm as "dead cards").

[Birkardo]

What on Earth do you mean by saying that Ancestral Recall wins games, and Brainstorm doesn't?

Becouse Recall gives huge card advantage and Brainstorm doesn't?

[Gheizen64]

Becouse Recall gives huge card advantage and Brainstorm doesn't?

Under this assumption, every tutor is bad. Card advantage isn't the only kind advantage that matters, card quality also does. To be fair, i'd consider card quality more important than raw card advantage in most cases.

And no, i'm not implying that ancestral is worse than Brainstorm since the best card quality brainstorm can provide is exactly the same as ancestral. It would be interesting to debate where a digging effect is considered equivalent to a pure card drawing spell, but this isn't the place.

[rufus]

Ancestral Recall creates Card Advantage. Brainstorm does not create Card Advantage.

Just because it doesn't lead to wins the same way, doesn't mean it won't lead to wins. Brainstorm creates virtual card advantage by allowing you to trade cards that are weak for ones that are strong. There are other virtual card advantage effects that are definitely potent enough to win games -- consider cards like Trinisphere,Doomsday or Demonic Tutor.

[ColeM]

Ancestral Recall creates Card Advantage. Brainstorm does not create Card Advantage.

So regarding the ability to win:
Ancestral Recall is like the size of the moon
Brainstorm is like the size of an elephant

So if we look at it in this scale, then the moon is huge, elephants are not huge.
Therefore I say Ancestral Recall wins games, Brainstorm does not.

I do not say that there are no scenarios where Brainstorm can be the card that decides whether to win or lose a game. Many unbanned cards can take that role. But in comparison to cards that really win you the game and do this quite regularly, Brainstorm does not.

@Artowis: What´s the point of your post? In a vast majority of cases Brainstorm isn´t worth a Force of Will or Mana Drain (but maybe a Misstep or a Flusterstorm, if you consider these counterspells post-Brainstorm as "dead cards").

This is just stupid.

You could say every card wins and loses games. The impact on a game's outcome Ancestral Recall and Brainstorm have is dependent upon the relevance of the cards they find you (I suppose Recall also decreases library size by 2 additional cards, but I doubt this has very much impact in most Eternal games). Recall is obviously going to have more impact on average, but how much better it is than Brainstorm will vary from metagame to metagame. When a large portion of your games end early and come down to simply resolving a specific card (maybe Yawgmoth's Will, Oath of Druids, Ad Nauseam or Counterbalance) then Brainstorm probably isn't all that far behind Ancestral - not that this comparison even matters since this thread is just about Brainstorm in Legacy.

I would like to see the data and analysis you have to support the claim that 'In a vast majority of cases Brainstorm isn´t worth a Force of Will or Mana Drain.'

[NecroYawgmoth]

No one ever suggested that Brainstorm doesn't help win the game, but it is not, in and of itself, a threat or even an answer. A single Stifle or Wasteland or Hymn can singlehandedly win some games, but Brainstorm on its own never ever has. Brainstorm is only as strong as the other cards in your deck.

Ancestral Recall indeed wins you games. Brainstorm does not.

That Brainstorm can find you the same gamewinning cards [Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn/whatever] what Ancestral could also find. Brainstorm is truly a strong card, and actually HAS the ability to decide games, because of the +3draw at instantspeed.I really can see the comparsion between Brainstorm and Ancestral Recall regarding power levels.

Card advantage isn't the only kind advantage that matters, card quality also does. To be fair, i'd consider card quality more important than raw card advantage in most cases.

And no, i'm not implying that ancestral is worse than Brainstorm since the best card quality brainstorm can provide is exactly the same as ancestral. It would be interesting to debate where a digging effect is considered equivalent to a pure card drawing spell, but this isn't the place.

+1

[death]

Those saying Brainstorm doesn't win games probably haven't won games with it.

2011 Grand Prix Amsterdam Day 2 Blog

Two life remaining. No cards in play. Christof Kovacs needed a miracle. He needed an instant kill, he needed his Hive Mind and a Pact, but he also needed a Show and Tell because on 2 life he couldn't afford to use his Ancient Tomb for mana.

The odds of having those cards were astronomical. The odds of casting Brainstorm and seeing all three of the cards you needed were even higher.

But it's what happening. Ripping victory out of the ashes of defeat, Christof Kovacs cast Show and Tell, deployed his Hive Mind, and played a Summoner's Pact!

Christof Kovacs 2 – 1 Bas Melis

Brainstorm wins game in a lot of decks not just with Lab Maniac. Consider Doomsday/ANT/TES/High Tide. Even Ponder wins games.

Finals: Alix Hatfield vs. Eli Kassis

Alix played High Tide, a land, and a Ponder. He began calculating how he would put together a win in this position, and step one involved shuffling his library following a Ponder. Alix peeled the top card of the deck, and the room quaked as everyone exclaimed—Time Spiral had put Alix suddenly and violently back into the game.

Eli 1, Alix 2

Counterbalance without top in play can win with Brainstorm when game breaking plays are on the line. Only those with experience winning with the card understands this.

[Admiral_Arzar]

What on Earth do you mean by saying that Ancestral Recall wins games, and Brainstorm doesn't?

He means that he's straw-manning like a motherfucker, because if you have a shuffle effect, Brainstorm often does basically the same thing. The difference is Recall doesn't need a shuffle effect, and if all the cards are good you get to keep them. They are both restricted in vintage for a reason.

Those saying Brainstorm doesn't win games probably haven't won games with it.

Brainstorm wins game in a lot of decks not just with Lab Maniac. Consider Doomsday/ANT/TES/High Tide. Even Ponder wins games.

Only those with experience winning with the card understands this.

Brainstorm probably wins me more games than any other card when I'm playing combo, excepting the occasional hilarious topdeck (Oh look, a Time Spiral, I guess I win now...).

[joemauer]

Why are wasting our time debating whether brainstorm is broken or not?
Three cards drawn for one mana at instant speed is clearly broken. Irregardless of the drawback which is small.

Does brainstorm need to be banned because it is broken?

If you answered yes then that opens a whole can of worms. Legacy is full of broken cards so what will be banned next?
Artifact that produces three mana of any color?
Free spells?
A land almost as good as strip mine?
Cards banned in other formats like stoneforge and jace?
6/7 creature for two mana?
Artifact that can pump out creatures for free every turn?
Tutors like entomb and enlightened?

So much brokeness in Legacy, but these are the pillars of Legacy. Take one down and there will be need of discussion to take another down.

Force of Will + Brainstorm has always been a good stategy in Legacy. Why does Snapcaster make it in need of banning? Maybe Snapcaster Mage might be more broken?